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I don't know if I can think of any other subject that can get people as riled up and emotional as religion. We've seen it from believers and nonbelievers in countless threads. In fact it's one subject that a great many people avoid talking about altogether but I wonder why that's the case. People have strong opinions and disagreements about every other topic you can think of from sports to politics but religion seems to be in a league of it's own when it comes to the hostility and bad feelings that often arise. Why do you think that happens?
because 'religion'/relationship with Jesus goes to the core of your soul...
it defines who you are, where you came from and where you are going... emotionally, psychologicaly, physically, spiritualy....
it defines your identity, and gives commonality between those who are 'like' minded....with support, acceptance, and hopefully non-judgemental relationships...
when you 'mess' with ones religion it will almost always pierce their core..
almost like messin with someones kid.... when its about your kid or your relationship with God...its always personal...no matter how you cut it....
almost like messin with someones kid.... when its about your kid or your relationship with God...its always personal...no matter how you cut it....
I do understand how strongly many religious people feel about their faith so I kinda see where you're coming from but the very purpose of this forum is to discuss philosophical and religious ideas so this is an appropriate place to express yourself on any topic that falls into those categories. I do think it's a good thing that they have the separate Christian forum so believers can share their thoughts without getting into an unwanted debate but on this main forum debating various ideas is what it's all about. I don't see the point of a believer or a nonbeliever coming onto the forum for the sole purpose of hurling insults at people who don't think the way they do but there have been some good discussions from time to time and there's quite a few sharp people on both sides of the issues so I do find it interesting.
It would be a different matter if you were in a different situation, say for example at your job or in some social gathering and someone finds out that you're religious and decides to just throw out an insult or tries to pick an argument with you when you weren't even looking for a conversation about religion in the first place. Although in all fairness it's probably more likely that an atheist would find themselves in this predicament and I have.
I just think it's too bad that people can't just discuss religious topics without having someone come unglued and and suddenly you're in the middle of a mud slinging contest. Honestly, if the mods didn't keep a lid of some of the hostility that's been expressed by many people it would just spin out of control which is a shame.
With all due respect, you need spiritual understanding to understand this. Each human is influenced by the spirits around them. You choose these spirits by the God you choose (this even applies to atheists). There are spirits who are in opposition or rebellion to the Creator's spirit. By not choosing the Creator we automatically choose the rebellious spirit's side. This does not seem fair, but it's the way it is. These spirits influence on people of different beliefs is always antagonistic. They always create conflicts. The reason this is happening is because of the rebellion of some spirit beings to the Creator. This is why people are so sensitive, there are unseen spirits affecting them 24-7. Not that these rebellious spirits care about man, but because the Creator loves us the rebellious spirits are trying to hurt the Creator by hurting what He loves. This is why the rebellious ones try to create conflict between the Creator's children.
You actually just illustrated the point quite neatly -- 'rebellious spirits' opposing the 'Creator's spirit'.
I disagree that 'rebellious spirits' try to cause conflict -- when you boil it down, that's a personal perception of events.
Just read the language of your own post, Sandgirl -- there are 'rebellious spirits' that seek to corrupt the Creator? That's coming from your own worldview, which is a valid one, but it's still predisposed to assume that there's *someone* being deceived in some way, which implies that that someone is 'wrong' in some way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandgirl
By not choosing the Creator we automatically choose the rebellious spirit's side.
I wanted to bring this part of your post up, in particular, because it sums up my entire point: by not choosing someone's particular view of 'god' and adopting it *immediately*, we're supposedly 'wrong' or 'following the wrong path' or 'deceived'.
As I said, when everyone else is wrong by default, it's very easy to be the only 'correct' group.
One of my hobbies is doing independent research on aircraft crashes/disasters. As most of you are probably aware, this week there was an MD-82 that crashed in Spain killing around 150 people. Putting the tragedy of the situation aside, I like to look at what the eyewitnesses said about the situation. Anybody who saw it was likely deeply affected by what they saw. Watching 150 people perish in an airplane crash is a highly emotional moment and things become a little skewed as to what is real and what isn't but it's all VERY real to the person. That being said, reading the initial eyewitness accounts gets a little confusing. Some say the engine was on fire on takeoff. Others say the aircraft never left the ground. Others say it took off and rolled over. And then there are always those who say they saw it just to get attention (even though they didn't). It's the job of the investigator to determine what the actual reality of the situation is using the most plausible eyewitness accounts that match up with the physical and scientific evidence. In essence, the emotional touch of the situation as well as the recollection of fine details seems to get blurred by the situation but the reality of the situation seems to be very different for each individual.
Keeping that analogy in mind I think that religion is a highly charged emotional concept. Although it's not a tragic experience like watching an airplane with 150 people in it, it still cuts the river of emotions quite deep. When those beliefs are challenged in a particular fashion, it seems that the natural defense mechanism of humans can have a blinding effect that blocks typical rational and conceptual thought.
Interestingly enough, I suspect that if you took the eyewitnesses of this week's plane crash and put them all in a room to talk about what they saw you would have the people who thought the engine was on fire banding together. The people who thought the airplane took off band together. The people who thought the airplane didn't take off band together. And you would probably have a group of "all the others" in there as well. Interestingly enough, I don't suspect it would take too long before they started to fight over the situation. Once people challenge one another's "realities" - no matter how ridiculous or skewed - emotions will run high because reality is a highly charged emotional event for everyone. Keeping that in mind, there is a wholesome body of scientific evidence to tell everyone what the reality was but those who swear they saw the engine on fire will swear upon it until the day they die so as not to be discredited - no matter how little evidence there is to support that idea.
You actually just illustrated the point quite neatly -- 'rebellious spirits' opposing the 'Creator's spirit'.
I disagree that 'rebellious spirits' try to cause conflict -- when you boil it down, that's a personal perception of events.
Just read the language of your own post, Sandgirl -- there are 'rebellious spirits' that seek to corrupt the Creator? That's coming from your own worldview, which is a valid one, but it's still predisposed to assume that there's *someone* being deceived in some way, which implies that that someone is 'wrong' in some way.
I wanted to bring this part of your post up, in particular, because it sums up my entire point: by not choosing someone's particular view of 'god' and adopting it *immediately*, we're supposedly 'wrong' or 'following the wrong path' or 'deceived'.
As I said, when everyone else is wrong by default, it's very easy to be the only 'correct' group.
FredNotBob, You have to accept that there is a spirit realm or multidimensional realm in order to understand what I said. You do not accept that there are multidimentional beings around you right now who are trying to influence you. It was hard for me to accept when I discovered it. Until you discover it you can't see it.
You see it as right and wrong belief systems. I see it as seeking the truth no matter what that truth is. Over a life time of study and experience I have come to believe there is a Creator.
You do not accept that there are multidimentional beings around you right now who are trying to influence you. It was hard for me to accept when I discovered it. Until you discover it you can't see it.
Thanks for your thoughts sandgirl. I have to say that it happens very often that believers and nonbelievers find each others ideas to be so different to everything that they think personally that they sometimes lash out in some sort of rude response. I honestly find it to be impossible to believe that there are multidimentional beings around me at any given moment. If you don't mind my asking, how did you make such an incredible discovery and do you have any evidence other than your own senses that this is actually what's going on? The reason I ask is that it appears to me that you may be trying to come up with an explanation for human behavior that ignores human nature and instead relies on supernatural explanations for very mundane everyday events. In any case, I have no intention of ridiculing your beliefs, I'm just honestly wondering how you've come to such a conclusion. Thanks.
Thanks for your thoughts sandgirl. I have to say that it happens very often that believers and nonbelievers find each others ideas to be so different to everything that they think personally that they sometimes lash out in some sort of rude response. I honestly find it to be impossible to believe that there are multidimentional beings around me at any given moment. If you don't mind my asking, how did you make such an incredible discovery and do you have any evidence other than your own senses that this is actually what's going on? The reason I ask is that it appears to me that you may be trying to come up with an explanation for human behavior that ignores human nature and instead relies on supernatural explanations for very mundane everyday events. In any case, I have no intention of ridiculing your beliefs, I'm just honestly wondering how you've come to such a conclusion. Thanks.
You are wanting empirical evidence, which I cannot provide. While I and many others have seen the Creator move in our lives it is not evidence that you would accept. And from your world view that is understandable. There was a time in my life when I thought the same as you. I will admit that the super natural is of greater importance or a higher order of thinking and understanding to myself and many others. How do I prove to you that there is a multidimentional universe? I'll see ya on the other side
With all due respect, you need spiritual understanding to understand this. Each human is influenced by the spirits around them. You choose these spirits by the God you choose (this even applies to atheists). There are spirits who are in opposition or rebellion to the Creator's spirit. By not choosing the Creator we automatically choose the rebellious spirit's side. This does not seem fair, but it's the way it is. These spirits influence on people of different beliefs is always antagonistic. They always create conflicts. The reason this is happening is because of the rebellion of some spirit beings to the Creator. This is why people are so sensitive, there are unseen spirits affecting them 24-7. Not that these rebellious spirits care about man, but because the Creator loves us the rebellious spirits are trying to hurt the Creator by hurting what He loves. This is why the rebellious ones try to create conflict between the Creator's children.
I became an atheist through logic and rational thinking, not some imaginary spirits.
These 'spirits' you speak of must be influencing you to say things that are absurd and ridiculous.
These 'spirits' you speak of must be influencing you to say things that are absurd and ridiculous.
The funny thing is that there are societies who believe in superstitious 'magic' yet still are more psychologically grounded (read: mentally healthy) than someone who only believes in modern science.
It is not what you believe that is important, but how you use it.
People who are 'superstitious' might have accepted death more easily (or at least cope better with loss) than the most rational guy because he realised that death could come at any moment.
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It is not what you believe that is important, but how you use it.
