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Old 05-06-2017, 02:28 PM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
The declaration of Independence invoked God to trump the Monarchy.
Originally written by John Locke, the authors took his idea and ran with it.
John Locke of Skibo, NC?...
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
John Locke of Skibo, NC?...
Maybe John Locke from Lost?
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:13 AM
 
Location: US
26,264 posts, read 13,930,302 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
Maybe John Locke from Lost?
The DOI was original written by someone in Skibo, NC and sent to England where it was rejected, Thomas Jefferson plagiarized it and was therefore credited with the DOI...If memory serves, the original is on display somewhere here in North Carolina...
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Old 05-07-2017, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 6,832,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern no more View Post
I am curious about something, if the Pilgrims came to America to be free to practice the religion that they wanted and that was what "this country has been founded on". Than why do I hear so often that our fore fathers were Christians and that is why we should bow to Christianity in America. And why were so many innocent people were killed in Salem when they were or accused of being witches. It just seems like some serious confusion. Any takes on this?
The pilgrims cared not one iota about religious freedom - they simply wanted the power to practice their religion and impose their religious dictates on everyone in their community.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonesg View Post
The declaration of Independence invoked God to trump the Monarchy.
As usual, you're wrong.

The Declaration of Independence - which is an airing of grievances and a statement of intents, not a legally-binding document of any sort - refers only to 'Nature's God', which is a Deistic concept. The notion of 'Nature's God' rejects both personal revelation and the idea that any deity interferes in any way with the ongoing world. These traits, of course, run completely contrary to virtually all flavors of the Christian stew, yet those clear and obvious facts have never stopped Christians from falsely claiming that the 'Nature's God' of the non-Christian Founders indicates that they were Christians or at least embraced overt Christian concepts.

Aside from that, when it came time to start actually making law - not just announcing what they intended to do and why - the Founders were very careful to exclude any deities from the civic discussion.

Here's the complete text of the Articles of Confederation:
Articles of Confederation : March 1, 1781

That's right - you won't find any mention of, or reference to, 'God' or any other deity in there.

The same is true of the Constitution:
U.S. Constitution

So, to sum up, the primary founding documents of the American republic contain precisely one reference to a deity, that being a non-Christian one and occurring only as an aside in an introductory paragraph proceeding a body of text in a document that neither carries nor ever was intended to carry any legal weight.
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Old 05-07-2017, 09:58 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,564 posts, read 3,135,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsettomati View Post
So, to sum up, the primary founding documents of the American republic contain precisely one reference to a deity, that being a non-Christian one and occurring only as an aside in an introductory paragraph proceeding a body of text in a document that neither carries nor ever was intended to carry any legal weight.
Well, actually, there *is* one reference to a deity in the Constitution.

Down in the signatory section where all the members of the then Continental Congress signed it, there is a part where the date is written which says:


"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names...."

However, in those days, signing things with the "Year of our Lord" was as common as signing something with "sincerely" in modern times.

Since the reference to a deity is not contained in any of the legal or procedural sections of the Constitution, it still shows that the Founders were trying to keep religion out of politics.
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Old 05-07-2017, 11:44 AM
 
Location: Type 0.7 Kardashev
10,577 posts, read 6,832,316 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Well, actually, there *is* one reference to a deity in the Constitution.

Down in the signatory section where all the members of the then Continental Congress signed it, there is a part where the date is written which says:

"Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the Twelfth In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names...."

However, in those days, signing things with the "Year of our Lord" was as common as signing something with "sincerely" in modern times.

Since the reference to a deity is not contained in any of the legal or procedural sections of the Constitution, it still shows that the Founders were trying to keep religion out of politics.
I don't think 'in the Year of our Lord' can even be considered a reference to a deity when it is merely referring to the dating convention being used, in the same way that the references in the Constitution to 'Monday' and 'Sunday' do not in any way refer to the deities Luna or Helios, from which their names respectively derive.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:14 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,551 posts, read 7,004,990 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
Well, I can offer this based on observation and research, and this information is on the internet, in local libraries and in journals stretching in collections all over the New England Area

Remember first, the the pilgrams, a branch of Engish Seperatists who wanted escape from what they believed to be persecution from the Church of England. What they REALLY want was the opportunity to persecute others, rather than be the persecutees.
If you look at the Puritan influence of The New England colonies throughout the 17th century, and the historical record is explicit, these individuals did everything from burning and torturing supposed witches to banning the celebration of Christmas ! no wonder England would not want people like that. These people Did NOT want a republic or a democracy, they wanted a THEOCRACY, and that theocracy with Their beliefs as the core.
Fact is, if you look at their attitudes and philosophy, THEY WERE NOT NICE PEOPLE !!!!
In other words, the idea of founding colonies for religious liberty extended to others is hogwash, a later ideal imposed on the real reasons. Check into the founding and operation of Maryland, for instance. The ONLY colonies to practice the kind of religious liberty OP speaks of were Rhode Island, New Jersey and Pennsylvania.
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Old 05-08-2017, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,808 posts, read 1,520,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
The DOI was original written by someone in Skibo, NC and sent to England where it was rejected, Thomas Jefferson plagiarized it and was therefore credited with the DOI...If memory serves, the original is on display somewhere here in North Carolina...
There was a fairly strong refutation of the 'plagiarism' claim presented by William Henry Hoyt, in 1907.

https://ia601402.us.archive.org/1/it...ecla00hoyt.pdf

The Mecklenburg Declaration of Independence: A Study of Evidence Showing that the Alleged Early Declaration of Independence by Mecklenburg County, North Carolina, on May 20, 1775, is Spurious.
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Old 07-11-2017, 03:25 PM
 
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Default Pilgrims were not Puritans. Pilgirms tolerant of others.

Pilgrims and Puritans were NOT the same people and should not be lumped together.

Pilgrims were tolerant separatists who respected others religious beliefs. There were many in their community who were not of the same beliefs and were not forced to conform. Pilgrims civil administration was also separate from their religion, unlike the Puritans.

Don't be like the Puritans during the witch trials and vilify innocents without the facts.

Last edited by SLCrisp; 07-11-2017 at 03:47 PM..
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:04 PM
Status: "Even better than okay" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
51,302 posts, read 50,558,025 times
Reputation: 60233
Quote:
Originally Posted by SLCrisp View Post
Pilgrims and Puritans were NOT the same people and should not be lumped together.

Pilgrims were tolerant separatists who respected others religious beliefs. There were many in their community who were not of the same beliefs and were not forced to conform. Pilgrims civil administration was also separate from their religion, unlike the Puritans.

Don't be like the Puritans during the witch trials and vilify innocents without the facts.
Also, though I'm not a big fan of the Puritans, it was a very small group of people that caused the Salem witch trials, not the Puritans as a whole.
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