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I'm not convinced of anything one way or another. I've always considered my experience to be some sort of weird brain glitch triggered by emotional distress and didn't give it a ton of thought beyond that. The mental blindness connection just dawned on me today and, like I said, it gives me pause.
Sorry, didn't mean to put you in a box there. I am not claiming you are doing this, I just know that some have had personal experiences that lead them to disregard naturalistic explanations, because they assume the truth of their non-naturalistic explanations.
In a very real sense, if you accept as truth that consciousness is not a product of biology, but something transcendent, an actual OBE feels plausible. In the same way, the idea of a miracle doesn't make a lot of sense unless you assume a God. If you do, then a miracle becomes a real possibility...
The idea of mental blindness is intriguing to me. I can visualize things, but it often take a lot of effort, and conscious thought. My wife is a very vivid dreamer, and often thinks in images. My mental process is more like constructing a textual narrative and then building an image form that, so when I day dream it is a lot like reading a book for me... I think any "OBE" I would have, at least based on my conscious experience, would feel like some sort of descriptive essay.
Sorry, didn't mean to put you in a box there. I am not claiming you are doing this, I just know that some have had personal experiences that lead them to disregard naturalistic explanations, because they assume the truth of their non-naturalistic explanations.
I appreciate that.
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In a very real sense, if you accept as truth that consciousness is not a product of biology, but something transcendent, an actual OBE feels plausible. In the same way, the idea of a miracle doesn't make a lot of sense unless you assume a God. If you do, then a miracle becomes a real possibility...
I accept that as a possibility.
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The idea of mental blindness is intriguing to me. I can visualize things, but it often take a lot of effort, and conscious thought. My wife is a very vivid dreamer, and often thinks in images. My mental process is more like constructing a textual narrative and then building an image form that, so when I day dream it is a lot like reading a book for me... I think any "OBE" I would have, at least based on my conscious experience, would feel like some sort of descriptive essay.
-NoCapo
Yes, exactly. Only I'm not able to take it beyond the textual narrative form into any degree of visual one. I can, however, imagine things kinesthetically to some degree.
I really don't know enough about this stuff to say much. But if one is convinced that the physical world as we perceive is all there is, it would necessarily limit one's spectrum of inquiry.
Nah, not really. If the "physical world" includes everything we can objectively measure ( which could even include objective evaluation of people's subjective experience...) then there is no other avenue for inquiry. One can make up untestable, unfalsifiable "explanations", but there is no way to test the idea, no way to "inquire" as to the truth of the hypothesis... If we can find a way to measure, predict or model the supernatural that provides falsifiable, repeatable results it simply becomes part of our natural world. I think rather than just making stuff up about things we cannot measure or observe, we should expend more effort to find ways to observe and measure it, rather than just excuse it as being "spiritual". How awesome would it be if we could measure a soul? If we could isolate the essence of being? That seems way more exciting to me that to just say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
There are some folk that are so determined to support their athiesm, and take for gospel the scientist that will agree with some hypothisis,they will believe it as fact .
Using drugs is NOT the same thing.
Though it is not my expirence ,
I read a personal testimony of a man that had died some where in the north easter states .
When he left his body he went south to a Florida town at a corner bar .
This person had never been to florida in his life nor had even seen pictures of the area.
Any way, He could see people in the bar and spirits demons going in and ot of people, and it scared the tar out of him.
He left the bar and went back north again and had a hard time finding the hospitial he came from, and when he got there he couldn't find his body beause it had been moved to the morgue.
When he finally found it in the morgue, he reentered and came to .
There was still a long recovery time, but when he was able, he traveled to Florida to find this bar, and he did .
This event turned his life around to serving God .
There are many other personl testimonies I have heard , but ths one defies the notion that it's all in one's mind.
A very good friend of mine was driving a seldom used mountain road and very exhausted she lost contol on a turn and went over the edge and down a revene, 30-40 feet down from the road about a 45 degree angle.
When she came too, a woman helped her out of the car, and up the hill side.
When she got to the top the other woman had no car and simply disapeared.
When police an ambulance came, she asked them if they knew any thing aboout the one that helped her , through some investigation it was discovered that about a month or so "before", that woman and her husband were killed along that road by criminals..
I know the road very well and my friend of course and the police and nothing is fabricted.
While this is not an out of the body expirence, it does prove spirit life is real.
Nah, not really. If the "physical world" includes everything we can objectively measure ( which could even include objective evaluation of people's subjective experience...) then there is no other avenue for inquiry. One can make up untestable, unfalsifiable "explanations", but there is no way to test the idea, no way to "inquire" as to the truth of the hypothesis... If we can find a way to measure, predict or model the supernatural that provides falsifiable, repeatable results it simply becomes part of our natural world. I think rather than just making stuff up about things we cannot measure or observe, we should expend more effort to find ways to observe and measure it, rather than just excuse it as being "spiritual". How awesome would it be if we could measure a soul? If we could isolate the essence of being? That seems way more exciting to me that to just say, "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!"
-NoCapo
It seems to me like you're making a giant leap away from what I said. I didn't tell you people shouldn't look for ways to measure things, or try to understand them. I just said that assuming that everything must conform to what one [currently] perceives as our reality, will limit one's spectrum of inquiry.
It seems to me like you're making a giant leap away from what I said. I didn't tell you people shouldn't look for ways to measure things, or try to understand them. I just said that assuming that everything must conform to what one [currently] perceives as our reality, will limit one's spectrum of inquiry.
Ahh, ok. That, I agree with. Our understanding of reality can always be expanded and when it does it opens new avenues of inquiry.
I have a problem with assertions that there is some truth that must be accepted which is permanently and by definition outside of our ability to perceive or measure. I don't see that as an avenue of inquiry at all, since if it is permanently outside of our grasp, it can never lead to understanding. All you get is blind acceptance of assertion, which to me is the opposite of inquiry.
I'm not convinced of anything one way or another. I've always considered my experience to be some sort of weird brain glitch triggered by emotional distress and didn't give it a ton of thought beyond that. The mental blindness connection just dawned on me today and, like I said, it gives me pause.
you are spot on ! enjoy the treasure hunt, and enjoy the treasures! I am loving the connection you made!
Ahh, ok. That, I agree with. Our understanding of reality can always be expanded and when it does it opens new avenues of inquiry.
I have a problem with assertions that there is some truth that must be accepted which is permanently and by definition outside of our ability to perceive or measure. I don't see that as an avenue of inquiry at all, since if it is permanently outside of our grasp, it can never lead to understanding. All you get is blind acceptance of assertion, which to me is the opposite of inquiry.
-NoCapo
One thing though ... some people are saying that there are things that are within our ability to perceive (or at least within some people's ability), but they get shut down by the atheist scientific types around here quite often, seems to me. If that is true beyond these boards, and scientists* classify any explanations that don't sit well with them (or aren't currently testable) as "woo", that pretty much hog times them, seems to me.
One other thing: could you give me an example of something that someone (other than a fundamentalist) has claimed must be accepted as truth, that is "by definition" permanently outside of our ability to perceive or measure?
*I don't know the percentage of scientists who are atheists, so I don't know how broadly this would apply.
I'm not sure what you mean by awful, an awful experience for him to go through
I mean an anecdote remains an anecdote, even if you know or have met the person telling it or not. Gauging reactions does not tell you as much as you think.
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Originally Posted by arleigh
Using drugs is NOT the same thing.
In what sense? An OBE is an OBE, regardless of how it occurs.
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Originally Posted by arleigh
I read a personal testimony of a man
Yay more anecdote. Put it on the pile. Maybe some day the plural of anecdote will be "evidence" but not today.
But if you haven't experienced it for yourself you cannot know for sure how ridiculous or accurate your present beliefs about it are.
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