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Interesting story about the 17 year old buying a car and not making payments. What if the father locked the kid in the car and set fire to it.
That's not the example I'm giving, nor is it analogous to what God does. You're imposing that but not providing a rationale for it.
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Originally Posted by Visvaldis
Do you believe you could tell the difference between disciplinary action (which is beneficial) and sadistic brutality (which serves no purpose at all, except pleasure to the sadist)?
On what level? On an earthly level, I believe I can. And, on an earthly level, disciplinary action is NOT always beneficial for the perpetrator of the wrongdoing; where you got that idea, I'm not sure. On a spiritual level I believe that I understand to a certain degree the difference between discipline and cruelty, but spiritually I'm limited and can't understand it all.
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Originally Posted by Visvaldis
You point out that we cannot understand god. But that's just an excuse and justification.
Kind of how man gives "just an excuse and justification" for natural laws like gravity which it cannot explain, right? In both cases, it is simply an acknowledgment that man's knowledge is limited. At what point do YOU give "just an excuse and justification" for the beliefs you have? Or are you implying your knowledge is limitless??
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Originally Posted by Visvaldis
If god was a human father, he'd be doing jail time for child abuse. In prisons such inmates (child abusers) are also despised by the others. He would have a very rough time, if he survives.
On deep reflections, I'll have to say there are countless confused folks on here like Dani, jojajn or Visvaldis <there's also this other set of perplexioners like the d(OO)des who paint baby gazelles, but let's let'em paint for now>
If you guys had had me as your personal clergyman, I'd probably have made you upright Catholics
On second thought, I'll pass big Vis out, I don't spend time with men
Anyone? I'll probably respond in Dani's stead, "Colossus, thanks, but, no, thanks"
Anyone else not have a clue about what this is supposed to mean?
Colossus_Antonis, You may want to rewrite your posts the following morning.
It's amazing what you are equating to 'getting yelled at' or 'getting grounded'. Have you heard of Josef Fritzl? When his daughter Elisabeth turned 18, he locked her in a dungeon he built below his house for 24 years, until he was finally caught. He raped her repeatedly for those 24 years, while the children of their incest watched. She had 7 children by her father, one of which died as an infant. Everyone who knew her thought she had ran off with some religious group. None of her children ever saw sunlight until a year ago. They lived their whole childhood in a hellish world where they must witness their father/grandfather repeatedly raping their mother, never knowing anything beyond that tiny 2-room cell except what they saw on tv.
What does any of this have to do with anything I've said? Make the connections, it's not my job to infer your argument from your disjointed examples.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
Now it's ridiculous to assume Josef Fritzl doesn't exist because of what he did, as you joked above. You have misread the position some of us are in. It is that you say there is a father of fathers, you call him God, and he is perfect, loving and just, and he created the world and all its people exactly as they are. We don't get to see him, we just have to believe he's there, but he allows evil people to do things like what Josef Fritzl did to his innocent daughter.
I don't assume Josef Fritzl doesn't exist. What's your point? Are you saying that it's ridiculous for anyone to assume God exists, because of the horrible things you allege that he has done?
What is the position some of you are in? What does seeing Him have to do with anything? Who says you "just have to believe he's there"???
As for His allowing of Josef Fritzl doing what he did to his daughter, I suppose you want Him to forbid all sin, all the time, whenever it harms other people in His eyes??? You would be happy to be give up your freedom of choice, your free will? You realize you wouldn't be able to say what you're saying right now if that were the case.
Or are you saying that you wish God would do what YOU think is right, and mete out "justice" as YOU see fit? Sounds like every kid I've ever known. I always wanted my dad to do what I wanted him to do. It's part of being ignorant and selfish, as kids typically behave in response to thier parents' authority and as humans typically behave in response to God's authority.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
I wonder, would you still think your father was a good father if he allowed you to do these things to your daughter, or if he allowed this type of thing to be done to you? How is it moral or just to allow the free will of an evil person to hurt and destroy the free will of an innocent person?
So now you're making God out to be some kind of grandfather and not a spiritual being who is the Creator of the World. And by the way, nobody can hurt or destroy the will of another person; humans can only harm each other physically, sometimes devastatingly so, but humans can not harm each others' spirits. Every individual is in control of his or her own spirit and will.
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
But I'll be fair, the examples you posted were about teaching lessons, in which pain was a necessary component. So I ask, what lessons were these poor people taught, and why was this horror necessary to teach that lesson? God is moral and just, but he can't think of a less atrocious way to go about this?
If you want to learn what the lessons are, or even could be, then open your mind and your heart to spirituality and seek the answers. Any answers I give you on a message board are not going to be any deep secret that is revealed because I posted it here. The revelation comes from your own seeking, and your seeking is dependent upon your will. If you don't want to seek it out, if you don't want to be open to a Truth that is different from the one you currently hold, then why even bother asking?
True donors don't flash such pictures for sensationalism or to score brownie points on an anonymous message board. You aspiring to be Bono? There already is one.
I'm still waiting for a poster to describe getting a baseball bat in the face, or having his/her hands stuck in boiling oil for not doing homework. Or having a leg cut of with a chain saw for staying out late.
Where are you, poster?
Check out Leviticus and Deuteronomy. You will find all that there.
That's not the example I'm giving, nor is it analogous to what God does. You're imposing that but not providing a rationale for it."
-Sure, those are invented examples. Whenever you want to deal with the reality of what is happening on this planet, let me know.
Your quote: "On what level? On an earthly level, I believe I can. And, on an earthly level, disciplinary action is NOT always beneficial for the perpetrator of the wrongdoing; where you got that idea, I'm not sure. On a spiritual level I believe that I understand to a certain degree the difference between discipline and cruelty, but spiritually I'm limited and can't understand it all."
-Ask a parent how they teach their children. Most parents use disciplinary action for correction. Yes, some parents do beat their children, sometimes severely enough for a trip to the emergency room...or to the morgue.
Your quote: "Kind of how man gives "just an excuse and justification" for natural laws like gravity which it cannot explain, right? In both cases, it is simply an acknowledgment that man's knowledge is limited. At what point do YOU give "just an excuse and justification" for the beliefs you have? Or are you implying your knowledge is limitless??"
Gravity is a matter of science and research.
This thread is not about gravity. You're trying to steer it away. Thereby, you (unknowingly) acknowledge that your religion is weak; it cannot be defended.
Your quote: "Why? For what?
"
Your seemingly innocent answer is "Why?" Are you kidding? Check out all the things happening on this planet - things that are beyond human control, such as natural disasters and diseases. Weak, defenseless religion again!
I've never been in prison. Prisoners do not like child abusers or women beaters. Remember Jeffrey Dahmer. He expired in prison at the fists of another inmate.
If life was placid there'd be little growth or learning. We might become something like Wells's Eloi. Evolution requires some pain and adversity, read your Darwin.
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<there's also this other set of perplexioners like the d(OO)des who paint baby gazelles, but let's let'em paint for now>
