Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Open your bible and look at the very way the story opens. What is the very first thing the Bible says God created in the beginning?
"Heavens" (whatever that means - it's a pretty vague word).)
This is the correct answer!
The term might be seen as being a bit "vague" but if you check out the other times the word is used you come to about 3 or 4 different meanings given to the word in the Bible.
All we need to remember is that among this listing of different meanings, the idea that stars and worlds and dust and all the stuff "up there" in outer space is among one of the meanings we find in the text.
Thats all we need to remember to see that there is NO need to invent the idea that God created the light from stars before he created the stars themselves.
yeshuasavedme...that is, without question, one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever seen one of you Fundies make. The Olmecs (nor any other Native Amercian people) were no more aware Nebuchadnezzar than Nebuchadnezzar was aware of the Olmecs.
You know, I have no idea why so many of you people have this constant need to determine that Native American people had to have had some Old World influence (or other-worldly) to have performed the things our ancestors did or given rise to our various culture.
(snipped for brevity, but do read his original post; it's worth it!)
Being Comanche (yeah, the real thing), I personally tire of you people trying to use our various nations to give credence to your religion. Believe what you will, but please stop trying to use us as part of your "proof". Just leave our nations out of it because, traditionally, we simply don't agree with you.
Watch it, Fullback, or we'll dig Custer out of His grave and send him back to teach you another lesson!
Quote:
Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme
So I am part Cherokee, Scott, Irish, and who knows ? -so what? I have a Taiwanese son-in-law, and an Eskimo [ Y'upik] daughter-in-law, and one son is married to a native of Figi, whose parents were from India, and a very good friend of my daughter's [and she is my friend, also] is a Navaho Indian; another friend of mine is Metlakatla Indian from Alaska; and my husband is part German, part French, and part Scot -or else parts unknown. We all came from Noah through one of his three sons, and the diffusion over the face of the earth, of the 70 tribes, by separation through tongues [which continued to branch out, like trees, to the over 5000 tongues today],
Rubbish. Trash. Nonsense. Ever heard of mitochondrialDNAtracing, and Mitochondrial Eve, YSM? It's incontrovertible (look that word up and write it and it's meaning on the blackboard two thousand times until you understand it!)
snip snip snip (there's so much to snip here...)
...because true world history is suppressed in 'public' -and in some biased, private- schools.
Unlike, for example, private Catholic schools?
Next: (a strategy that kd is so fond of using...): My favorite pet peeve is the ease with which Christian apologists tend towards requiring huge alterations of known constants like the speed of light, nuclear decay rates ("They weren't the same 6000 years ago!)" and then gloat over some recent research that suggests that the speed of light might just vary slightly due to gravitation near huge bodies.
But in their screwy alternate explanations of how the light from distant galaxies doesn't compute, they would have us believe in vast and huge variations variations. wow?
Shows their level of curiosity and independant thinking, huh?
They really should read and study and consider Ockham's Razor. It should be inserted on page one of all bibles....
And then they use some scientifcally deternmined constant to exlain, if appropriate, theyir pet theory.
Their vast re-constructions in order to explain away observed evidecne and logical conclusions is called "Beliefs of Convenience", and it's rampant on Christian websites, which pile unequities, disparities and illogic upon themselves, a wild session of incestuous fabrication piled deep on mis-information, layered with scorn and derision for what is the actual truth.
- There are many independent lines of evidence which indicate that the universe is much, much older. One example: we already receive the light of stars which are millions of light-years distant.
The light did not travel from stars to us, but the light was created on day 1, and the heavens were stretched out on day 2, and the light was inherent, then, in the stretched out heavens. the stars were not created until day 4.
The light was created on day 1,
the heavens were created on day 2
the land was brought out of the waters under the heavens on day 3
the sun, moon, and stars were created on day 4, and set in the created firmament/heavens, on that day, to rule the day/light, and the night.
The heavens were stretched out on day 2, when the waters were divided from the waters, with the "firmament" stretched out between the divided waters.
The sun, moon and stars are set in the firmament, beneath the waters above the firmament.
The stars are not the light created on day 1. The sun is not the light created on day 1.
The light created on day one was called "day".
The sun and moon are not the source of the light, but are receptacles of that light -the moon getting hers from the sun, who collects his from the "day", and refracts if back out.
Furthermore: Biblicly speaking, the sun, moon, and stars travel around the earth, and the earth is fixed in place. This is also what Enoch taught when he had a tour of creation by the angel in charge of the "light" and the luminaries, who is named Ariel/Uriel.
Furthermore, Biblicly speaking, the creator set His own created temple in the sun, as the Hebrew states, in Psalm 18. The Greek Septuagint also translated it thus -translated to English: "in the sun hath He set His temple".
Enoch went into that temple, and it is in the created sun, which sun serves as a parable of the Son of God, who is called the Sun of righteousness, who is the Light who is to come and who will outshine the sun for the Millennial reign, reigning in His Glory, in Jerusalem..
Once, the sun and moon stood still in their courses for nearly a full day, when Joshua commanded them to do so,
Once, the sun went backwards ten degrees, when Isaiah gave Hezekiah a sign. 2Ki 20:11 And Isaiah the prophet cried unto the LORD: and he brought the shadow ten degrees backward, by which it had gone down in the dial of Ahaz.
So I am part Cherokee, Scott, Irish, and who knows ? -so what? I have a Taiwanese son-in-law, and an Eskimo [ Y'upik] daughter-in-law, and one son is married to a native of Figi, whose parents were from India, and a very good friend of my daughter's [and she is my friend, also] is a Navaho Indian; another friend of mine is Metlakatla Indian from Alaska; and my husband is part German, part French, and part Scot -or else parts unknown. We all came from Noah through one of his three sons, and the diffusion over the face of the earth, of the 70 tribes, by separation through tongues [which continued to branch out, like trees, to the over 5000 tongues today], began at the fall of the tower of Babel; and as Jasher states, the entire world's land mass was divided in those days and men were scattered over the whole world [globe].
And FYI, It is YHWH who says He made Nebuchadnezzar the king of kings of the whole earth, in his day.
It is a fact that there was world wide trade in those days between all continents. You can read about real history, but you have to go find it for yourself, because true world history is suppressed in 'public' -and in some biased, private- schools.
Good for you dude. Do you know that is the biggest running joke among real NDN people (the "I'm part Cherokee" statement)? We know you people are going to say it before you actually do. I think your Adam and Eve are part Cherokee...the world seems populated with them. Being "part" doesn't make you an NDN.
I, on the other hand, am enrolled in my tribe, grew up in my tribe, speak my language, know our stories and traditions and, yes, even have the audacity to look NDN. So spare me the I'm part Cherokee crap as if that legitimizes you in any real NDN's eyes. You wouldn't know a real Cherokee if he kicked you in your yonegarear. I bet you don't even know what that Cherokee word means. Pretty bad when a Comanche knows more Tsalagi words than some part Cherokee.
Back to the issue at hand. The point is, your book means absolutely nothing to NDN people (except maybe those who have accepted your god.) The myths in your book have no legitimacy among traditionalists. Our stories do not agree with yours and in light of science, have about as much credibility. The difference is, we do not attempt to use our stories as scientific fact. You fundies do and it is a ridiculous venture. Your talking snake has as much reality as the Thunderbird. Yet you actually believe in a talking snake. We do not actually believe in a Thunderbird...anymore. We recognize that while our stories have a grain of truth in them, they are still myths created to explain the unexplainable (to the people of the time). You Christians have yet to come to terms with that. If what you say is true, then certainly the stories of our people would have something that resembled what you are saying...but they do not.
Yet the evidence is SO scant for the "scientific" theories you fundies and young earth creationists spout off about, you need to attempt to legitimize it by trying to create some type of link to Native Americans, and a lot of us don't appreciate it.
As far as looking things up concerning the "real history" of my people...I don't have to to look anything up. Unlike you Mr. Part-Cherokee, I lived it.
I, on the other hand, am enrolled in my tribe, grew up in my tribe, speak my language, know our stories and traditions and, yes, even have the audacity to look NDN. So spare me the I'm part Cherokee crap as if that legitimizes you in any real NDN's eyes. You wouldn't know a real Cherokee if he kicked you in your yonegarear. I bet you don't even know what that Cherokee word means. Pretty bad when a Comanche knows more Tsalagi words than some part Cherokee.
You are so arrogant. My 'half' Cherokee ancestor got kicked out of Indian Territoty in OK for riding a mule through the womens' bathing and washing hole -and that was the end of that.
And FYI, I have several aunts who are full Cherokee, as my daddy's many siblings picked wives from the local population, which included many Cherokee families, and lots of them are born again in Christ Believers.
And My heritage goes all the way back to Adam through Noah, just as yours does, which was the point of my post. -And FYI, all languages are just mingled versions of the one mother tongue, confounded by YHWH at the tower of Babel rebellion when He began the "diffusion" of the tribes by tongues over all the earth.
Creationists don't bother believing something if it can be observed in the natural world. You'll get answers along the lines of,'God did it you fool. Can't you see the abundent evidence. Look at a blade of grass. I'm right you see and I just proved it to you.'
You are so arrogant. My 'half' Cherokee ancestor got kicked out of Indian Territoty in OK for riding a mule through the womens' bathing and washing hole -and that was the end of that.
And FYI, I have several aunts who are full Cherokee, as my daddy's many siblings picked wives from the local population, which included many Cherokee families, and lots of them are born again in Christ Believers.
And My heritage goes all the way back to Adam through Noah, just as yours does, which was the point of my post. -And FYI, all languages are just mingled versions of the one mother tongue, confounded by YHWH at the tower of Babel rebellion when He began the "diffusion" of the tribes by tongues over all the earth.
Oh big whup.
I'm part Apache, but I'm just as blonde headed and blue eyed as they come. I don't go around bragging about my Native American blood because as someone who has worked on a couple of reservations, I know that I know NOTHING about the monumental difficulties faced by Native Americans today. As my grandmother would say, simply having Native blood does not make you Nde.
My heritage goes all the way back to the Olduvai Gorge 3.9 million years ago when Australopithicus afarensis first began scavenging the meat of animals killed by predators, setting in motion the evolutionary enlarging of hominid brains aka "the expensive tissue hypothesis."
When I have more time, I'll give you a little lesson in Linguistics. Of course, you'll close your eyes and mind to the truth of the origin of language, which is thought to have originated over 40,000 years ago with Neanderthal, the first hominid to evolve with a modern human-like hyoid bone--necessary for speech. You'll spew your bible verses with a vengence and I'll counter with cold, hard, scientific fact--oh the fun we'll have.
Oh, and by the way...you calling other people arrogant? Uh, yeah. Pot, meet kettle.
The term might be seen as being a bit "vague" but if you check out the other times the word is used you come to about 3 or 4 different meanings given to the word in the Bible.
All we need to remember is that among this listing of different meanings, the idea that stars and worlds and dust and all the stuff "up there" in outer space is among one of the meanings we find in the text.
Thats all we need to remember to see that there is NO need to invent the idea that God created the light from stars before he created the stars themselves.
Open your Bible and see what God said: in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth -a synopsis, not a mathematical formula, is given:
Earth is there first, before heaven/s, and earth is a water mass of unformed creation. Heaven/s are not created until day 2 -an evening and a morning.
Heaven/s are not created until the water is divided and a heaven -and heavens- were stretced out between the divided waters.
Genesis was not written in chapters and verses. It is one story, and in Genesis 2:4, your premise falls. Gen 2:4 ¶ These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God madethe earth and the heavens
You are so arrogant. My 'half' Cherokee ancestor got kicked out of Indian Territoty in OK for riding a mule through the womens' bathing and washing hole -and that was the end of that.
And FYI, I have several aunts who are full Cherokee, as my daddy's many siblings picked wives from the local population, which included many Cherokee families, and lots of them are born again in Christ Believers.
And My heritage goes all the way back to Adam through Noah, just as yours does, which was the point of my post. -And FYI, all languages are just mingled versions of the one mother tongue, confounded by YHWH at the tower of Babel rebellion when He began the "diffusion" of the tribes by tongues over all the earth.
Many, many people in this Nation can claim some ancestory from among the 1st Nations people.
If 1. you're parents are not registered with a tribe, and 2. you yourself are not on the Rolls, and 3. you don't have enough of a blood percentage to be able to register yourself in the first place, any "blood" you claim just doesn't mean jack crap, simple as that.
And no, Aunties don't count.
And if you were looking for some credibility there, I would classify it as quite the Epic Fail on your part.
BTW, science proves you wrong once again about the origin of language, but another poster offered to school you on that.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
sigh....
