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Why do bible-thumpers continue to try and force their religion on everyone through our laws?
They don't, but for the sake of argument let's take this statement at face value. Are you comparing yourself to them? Are you saying that you believe you hold the "Truth" and that we must accept your non-Christian viewpoint to find salvation or happiness or enlightenment?
Most atheist don't care what others believe. I doubt you've had many (if any) come up to you and make an attempt at conversion. Sure we have some bad apples here and there, but so does any other group of people.
"Well why in the world do you spend time here at CD on the R&P forum then," you may ask? I guess part of it's too much spare time. That and usually I'm just answering a question that's been asked from an atheist point of view, or trying to explain why I believe what I do. It doesn't take much for a true believer to get offended, which usually results in the 20+ page threads you see here of people going at it back and forth and getting nowhere.
I am an agnostic and I too have my issues with the Zeitgeist Movie on a whole. I admit some "truth" here and there on the religious topics, BUT I find it a bit stretching and too perfect to in trying to debunk the Jesus myth. Frankly, the Bible and Christian theology has more than enough fodder to debunk it on other grounds than to try to find all these neat little similarities.
The pre-Jesus savior comparisons to Jesus is nothing new any way. Ancient critics recognized some of these long before modern critics pointed them out as if they were something new. This is apparent from the published rebuttals by early Christian fathers like Justin Martyr (born a mere 70 years after the time of Jesus). His explanation for these similarities was that the demons/devils knew in advance what Jesus would do and made a preemptive strike by creating false gods and similar stories BEFORE the time of Jesus in order to deceive the world. This is better known as "diabolical mimicry." Martyr does NOT deny the similarities - he simply says the pagans had earlier versions of a Jesus model because demons inspired them with counterfeits. Then he tried to say it was the pagans who copied the Christians.
I agree. I believe the movie is using methods similar to many Christian apologetics site...Lots of cherry picking, exaggerations and a good bit of dishonesty...They are as dishonest in the religious part of the movie as they are about the 911 conspiracy bull crap they espouse. As you say, stuff like this is not needed to debunk what is in the bible. All one has to do is read it.
I agree. I believe the movie is using methods similar to many Christian apologetics site...Lots of cherry picking, exaggerations and a good bit of dishonesty...They are as dishonest in the religious part of the movie as they are about the 911 conspiracy bull crap they espouse. As you say, stuff like this is not needed to debunk what is in the bible. All one has to do is read it.
I KNOW for a fact that the Jesus myth was in part based on older pagan myths. He [later] became nothing more than the Jewish version of the same old story as his legend grew and found the need to compete with the other guys. That being said, I'm not going to sit here and say that every single detail is a perfect match as the movie tries to depict. While the Jews on a whole have historically been resistant to change, they have always had "sects" that have gone on to do their own thing. The Pharisees (Pharsi/Farsi) was a Jewish sect that spread Persian Zoroastrianism (Farsi) religion amongst the Jews in and fell into direct opposition with the "establishment" - the Sadducees. Then there were the Zealots (Sicarri), the Herodians, the Essenes, the Gnostics, the Ebionites and no doubt, those heavily influenced by Greek Hellenism and the various mystery religions of the times which had "savior" gods at their center long BEFORE Christianity.
Those who became the Jewish Christians were no different. While they may have presented new wrinkles here and there for their myths, they had enough templates to work off of to build their own story that grew legs over the years. Like others before and after them, they saw their version of the accounts as accurate and everyone else's as false. Others were either deceived, got it wrong or lost their way, but THEY had the truth. Of course Muhammad employed the same kind of thinking in Islam and the early Israelites used this to justify their massacre of Canaan's native population IF the bible is to be believed.
Would you like to do a "Scripture study" using the data in it, along with the OT and NT, on Jesus Christ as the Son of Man in heaven:
who was seen only by Enoch, who reported the revelation of Him as God, with God, hidden in God;
who was to come in flesh, who would die for "whosoever will believe in Him";
who was to make an end of sin;
rise from the dead;
ascend;
return;
and who is the appointed [by the unseen Father] judge of all things in heaven and in earth;
who made all things;
and who will regenerate the heavens and earth after the last judgment;
which is when He sends into the lake of fire all things that offend His holiness, glory, Person, and Name, without repentence?
But if you can, kudos to you and I'll give you props for it. Oh ... please cite the legitimate sources, peer reviewed works, research, etc. so we can all verify the validity of the information.
They don't, but for the sake of argument let's take this statement at face value. Are you comparing yourself to them? Are you saying that you believe you hold the "Truth" and that we must accept your non-Christian viewpoint to find salvation or happiness or enlightenment?
No, no and no. Short answer.
Long answer - My gods aren't in the salvation business, Thomas, and I claim no "truth" where my Deities are concerned. People do what they will to acheive happiness of enlightenment, within legal borders of course. Forcing one's religious doctrines and morals into laws (and there are many) does not provide "salvation, happiness, or enlightenment" for those people, and indeed keeps other from finding theirs.
The only thing I state as "truth" are those things commonly held as "truth" by the different scientific communities.
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Short answer.
