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I feel that same way about believers, ironically....I can't rationalize how anyone can base their life on something that is written in a book, information supposedly given by some unseen force, that supposedly created the earth and everything on it....yet there is absolutely no proof of any of this....
I have 100% faith that Gods do not exist.
You too, if you put your trust in Science, are putting your faith in words written in a book, in this case a science book or other media.
But you fail to understand the living relationship many people develop with their Father in Heaven. Reading books of scripture is just one way to get closer to God.
In the world you restrict yourself to, that would be somewhat comparable to you actually visiting each of the scientists you put your trust in to interpret your world for you, and observing their experiments first hand so you could KNOW that what was reported about them in media was actually valid and reliable.
I'm glad you have faith in something.
But sure, there is an element of faith in pretty much everything human beings are involved with. It comes with conscious living, part of the mortal package...
you too, if you put your trust in science, are putting your faith in words written in a book, in this case a science book or other media.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
but you fail to understand the living relationship many people develop with their father in heaven. Reading books of scripture is just one way to get closer to god.
In the world you restrict yourself to, that would be somewhat comparable to you actually visiting each of the scientists you put your trust in to interpret your world for you, and observing their experiments first hand so you could know that what was reported about them in media was actually valid and reliable.
I'm glad you have faith in something.
actually no, we are believing tests and evidence found through science. Only after the tests and evidence is found, is it written. We can do the tests today and see the results, cant say that about anything in the bible.
But sure, there is an element of faith in pretty much everything human beings are involved with. It comes with conscious living, part of the mortal package...
actually no, we are believing tests and evidence found through science. Only after the tests and evidence is found, is it written. We can do the tests today and see the results, cant say that about anything in the bible.
"We" can do the tests today???
Now who would that "we" be? Are you a research scientist yourself? Or are you just putting your faith in what science media reports about what some research scientists have found? I suppose you could say the same about some Christians who instead of seeking God for themselves put their faith in what their pastor or minister teaches them about Him.
There are many books and many verses in the Bible, but some things written in those books can be tested today. I quoted earlier from a prophet named "Alma" who suggested a way to experiment on his words, a way to develop faith. Or, you could try the following:
"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5
Millions of people have asked of God and received answers that are much more satisfying and certain to them than can be found in science textbooks that are ever changing as new tools are invented and new discoveries made.
I'm not that into science either. I just know in my core there is no God. Period.
I don't pretend to know the secret of life, or what happens after. I just believe there is no God. Period.
I thought the topic of discussion had to do with those who believe in GOD and those who do not. And how imprudent it may be, in my opinion, for the latter to disregard what is evident to almost everyone else in the world.
But as usual you twist the discussion into a castigation of different religious beliefs, and yes there are many.
My point was not to "castigate" them, but to point out the monolithic block of believers backing you up is anything but. Here's a group of people which share your assumptions about the utility of faith, and yet most of the come to a different set of truths than you do using it.
Doesn't that bother you a bit? You're all doing the same thing by observing this spiritual reality, and it's telling everyone contradictory things. I don't see how anyone's supposed to make sense of that.
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But you are content to disbelieve, to see only the elephant's foot and reach your conclusions by "reason" while others all around you stand back and admire the entire creature.
Much like you're ignoring the need to escape the continual cycle of death and rebirth that billions know to be true. Why is that? They're using faith just like you are, so they must be on to something since there's so many of them.
I'm not that into science either. I just know in my core there is no God. Period.
I don't pretend to know the secret of life, or what happens after. I just believe there is no God. Period.
My point was not to "castigate" them, but to point out the monolithic block of believers backing you up is anything but. Here's a group of people which share your assumptions about the utility of faith, and yet most of the come to a different set of truths than you do using it.
Doesn't that bother you a bit? You're all doing the same thing by observing this spiritual reality, and it's telling everyone contradictory things. I don't see how anyone's supposed to make sense of that.
Much like you're ignoring the need to escape the continual cycle of death and rebirth that billions know to be true. Why is that? They're using faith just like you are, so they must be on to something since there's so many of them.
With regard to personal revelation, if you were on the top of a mountain looking at a city with a telescope would you see the same things and understand them in the same way others standing beside you would observe and understand? God might reveal to a seeker in India where a deadly cobra was hiding and save that person's life, but would probably not mention cobras to someone in America.
Most of the contention within Christianity is because there are so many different ways to interpret ancient books after they have had so many translations, revisions, etc. And "presentism" is always in play. For example, you couldn't validly conclude that Napoleon was a lousy military commander because he failed to use modern machine guns and rockets. In the same way we tend to filter things written thousands of years ago through the lens of the way things are today.
Yes, it's confusing unless there are modern prophets and apostles and scripture additional to the books of the Bible, or unless you get to know God for yourself.
But you can still believe in God and have a different concept of His nature and a different personal relationship with Him than another believer.
I don't think I understand your observation about death and rebirth. It is my belief that God created/organized billions of spirits, each in His own image and likeness. Each of those spirits other than those who followed Lucifer in the premortal events and lost that privilege, will eventually have an opportunity to animate and integrate a physical body and experience life through physical senses. Physical bodies of course are created by other physical bodies.
So I don't get what you are saying I'm "ignoring" unless it's a belief in reincarnation, which I choose not to believe in.
Personally I am not relying on the testimonies of others for my belief in God. I have taken the time to do things His way and have discovered for myself that He lives and answers prayers...
1. I suppose those "made up tales" would also include what was once thought by scientists to be "facts" but were disproven or added to as new discoveries came along. (As will no doubt be the fate of many of today's "facts".) For example, apparently it was not long ago that most scientists scoffed at those who believed in the tectonic plate theory. But when someone was inspired to dig deep enough below the earth's surface for evidence, the grins quickly disappeared.
You mean like how everyone thought that drought was caused by angry gods or the idea that everything was poofed into existence at once not too long ago? Yeah all those ideas were forever rejected.
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Originally Posted by justamere10
There is no need to abandon science to believe in God. Your "our ability..." would also include many people who are not atheists. Science has its place, as does religion. We're all human beings having an earthly experience.
Man is a dual being, physical and spiritual. There are tools that work better than others to make discoveries in each of those realms. (Though inspiration to search here or there with physical tools, or to design new unique ones, probably comes from the spiritual realm.)
No, I contend that you are just looking for an excuse to believe in these myths. This isn't about science but rather about people who suddenly decide to abandon reason just because they would rather feel good about themselves than to look at things objectively
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Originally Posted by justamere10
2. If you limit yourself to the physical senses and ignore your dual nature your world will be only sensory. You'll in effect see the elephant's foot, examine it thoroughly, and reach conclusions that are world's apart from those drawn by people who chose to stand back far enough to see the entire creature.
You "stand back" and see an elephant
Someone else "stands back" and sees a cow
Another person "stands back" and sees 3 whales
This is because these "methods" aren't about finding out what's true and what's not. It's about believing in the myths people like best which is different for everyone.
In the end we have people who claim different things, people who say everyone else is wrong and people who spend their lives trying to explain or ignore this instead of doing the reasonable thing.
With regard to personal revelation, if you were on the top of a mountain looking at a city with a telescope would you see the same things and understand them in the same way others standing beside you would observe and understand?
Sure, why not? We've developed a method which allows personal observations to be shared and rigorously tested against reality. Revelation-based approaches are lagging behind just a bit since they are impossible to share and test.
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Most of the contention within Christianity is because there are so many different ways to interpret ancient books after they have had so many translations, revisions, etc.
That, and everyone's personal revelation on what is right and wrong is different.
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Yes, it's confusing unless there are modern prophets and apostles and scripture additional to the books of the Bible, or unless you get to know God for yourself.
I thought most of Christianity since at least the Reformation was based on a personal relationship with God. It doesn't seem to have helped the confusion that much. There's even been new versions of Christianity invented in the last few centuries ...
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I don't think I understand your observation about death and rebirth.
It was (I thought) an obvious reference to the fact that there a billion or more people in Asia who "know" via faith that the whole idea of a personal god is missing the point just as surely as you know through faith that he's the only way to go :
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So I don't get what you are saying I'm "ignoring" unless it's a belief in reincarnation, which I choose not to believe in.
"So long as you're content to disbelieve, to see only the elephant's foot and reach your conclusions by "faith in god" while others all around you stand back and admire the entire creature."
Man is a dual being, physical and spiritual. There are tools that work better than others to make discoveries in each of those realms. (Though inspiration to search here or there with physical tools, or to design new unique ones, probably comes from the spiritual realm.)
You keep saying things like this as if everyone agrees. The whole point is that many people don't. So what sort of test can we propose to figure out who is right? You wouldn't take the well-thought out "is not" argument as convincing; why would you expect anyone to take your "is too" assertion any differently?
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