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Below are a few opinions expressed by other people. I thought they might help move this thread along. It is my hope that if the points below are energetically denied or argued by the atheists on this board that others who believe in God will join in the discussion; this thread is not meant to be just me vs atheists or the other way around.
But however the thread evolves if it does, let's all keep in mind that if we love one another and tolerate and respect each other's varying beliefs even as we civilly express our own, the world becomes a better happier place to be...
To avoid a lot of repetition and make it easier to reply, please refer to the number of the comment you are specifically responding to, and write about only one comment at a time, thanks.
1. "There is a growing trend of militant atheism. These radical atheists are as zealous as any religionist in disseminating their message as well as demanding all religious expression be removed from public access."
2. "At the heart of this atheistic-liberal doctrine is elitism. They believe those who don't believe as they do are stupid and need to be told what to do by those who are more enlightened. One reason atheists like Stalin hated religion is because it gives the common people ideas of "inalienable rights," individual liberties and the sanctity of life. These ideas are in direct conflict with their elitist distrust of everyone but themselves."
3. "The interesting dichotomy of this brand of atheism is that while they believe human beings are inept and stupid, they set the human mind up as their god, believing science should be the final word on politics, government and morality, overlooking the fact that science is constantly changing and as likely wrong as right. Science is also poorly equipped to make any moral distinctions. In fact from an evolutionist standpoint natural selection or, in other words, survival of the fittest is at the core of human existence."
4. "Government, society and life itself are benefited when religion is involved. George Washington as well as other founders considered religion an "indispensable support" of democracy because a moral citizenry is absolutely necessary for democracy to survive."
5. "The reason religion is essential to a peaceful and successful society is because religion, with its promise of eternal rewards, justifies honesty, selflessness and hope. Atheism, with its moral relativism and lack of consequences, justifies all types of behavior including criminality, oppression and human extinction."
6. "When atheists cite the atrocities done in the name of religion as an indictment against religion, it is the ultimate in hypocrisy considering the staggering amount of human suffering and death committed in the name of atheism."
7. "Most people instinctively know that atheism is wrong, not because they are stupid or delusional, but because somewhere deep in the human mind and heart lies the knowledge that life has meaning, that most people are good and that some benevolent though unseen power is guiding us. To most people their very existence testifies of a creator. In fact, all of creation testifies of a creator. When one considers the grandness of the universe down to the complexity and marvel of the smallest atom, it takes less faith to believe in intelligent design than random chance."
8. "When it comes to the complexity of the human dilemma both science and religion provide valuable solutions. Science may be helpful with what ails the body, but only religion can soothe the soul."
It is my hope that these points will be copied and civilly discussed on other than CD boards as well. It is my opinion that atheists do not have the corner on Science and cannot validly use that discipline to justify their choice to not believe in a creator or life after death. There is a place for Science, and there is a place for Religion...
Last edited by justamere10; 09-08-2009 at 09:16 AM..
Why would you post a bunch of offensive opinions expressed by other people and not comment on them yourself? Are you trying to avoid censure? Tell us where you stand on them, then perhaps I'll comment
1. "There is a growing trend of militant atheism. These radical atheists are as zealous as any religionist in disseminating their message as well as demanding all religious expression be removed from public access."
Every group has its a-holes. Be careful pointing fingers.
Quote:
2. "At the heart of this atheistic-liberal doctrine is elitism. They believe those who don't believe as they do are stupid and need to be told what to do by those who are more enlightened. One reason atheists like Stalin hated religion is because it gives the common people ideas of "inalienable rights," individual liberties and the sanctity of life. These ideas are in direct conflict with their elitist distrust of everyone but themselves."
There is no atheistic-liberal doctrine. Atheists can be conservative, liberal, anarchists, oligarchists, monarchists, communists, capitalists, traditional liberals. Lack of belief in god is *not* a political philosophy.
Quote:
3. "The interesting dichotomy of this brand of atheism is that while they believe human beings are inept and stupid, they set the human mind up as their god, believing science should be the final word on politics, government and morality, overlooking the fact that science is constantly changing and as likely wrong as right. Science is also poorly equipped to make any moral distinctions. In fact from an evolutionist standpoint natural selection or, in other words, survival of the fittest is at the core of human existence."
Inaccurate assessment of what many atheists believe.
Science does not seek the answers to morality. That's a different field.
Quote:
4. "Government, society and life itself are benefited when religion is involved. George Washington as well as other founders considered religion an "indispensable support" of democracy because a moral citizenry is absolutely necessary for democracy to survive."
Government, society and life are benefited when people act to benefit those things. What motivates them to do so is irrelevant.
Quote:
5. "The reason religion is essential to a peaceful and successful society is because religion, with its promise of eternal rewards, justifies honesty, selflessness and hope. Atheism, with its moral relativism and lack of consequences, justifies all types of behavior including criminality, oppression and human extinction."
Demonstrably untrue. Go ahead and poll the criminal element for their religious beliefs and see if the percentages of atheists are any higher than the general, non-criminal population.
Quote:
6. "When atheists cite the atrocities done in the name of religion as an indictment against religion, it is the ultimate in hypocrisy considering the staggering amount of human suffering and death committed in the name of atheism."
The Inquisition,
What a show!
The Inquisition,
Dontcha know,
We know you're wishin',
That we'd go away!
But the Inquisition's here,
And it's here to stay!
Quote:
7. "Most people instinctively know that atheism is wrong, not because they are stupid or delusional, but because somewhere deep in the human mind and heart lies the knowledge that life has meaning, that most people are good and that some benevolent though unseen power is guiding us. To most people their very existence testifies of a creator. In fact, all of creation testifies of a creator. When one considers the grandness of the universe down to the complexity and marvel of the smallest atom, it takes less faith to believe in intelligent design than random chance."
Supposition and assumptive bias.
Quote:
8. "When it comes to the complexity of the human dilemma both science and religion provide valuable solutions. Science may be helpful with what ails the body, but only religion can soothe the soul."
What soul?
Quote:
It is my opinion that atheists do not have the corner on Science and cannot validly use that discipline to justify their choice to not believe in a creator or life after death.
Why would you post a bunch of offensive opinions expressed by other people and not comment on them yourself? Are you trying to avoid censure? Tell us where you stand on them, then perhaps I'll comment
Please identify which quote/s you find offensive, and why, thanks.
See, I don't buy the argument that Atheists are immoral. Some of the most moral people I know are atheists. You can be good without believing in a diety. This is part of the reason why I believe in some kind of "God", whether thats some collective consiousness or what ever it is. Every person knows its wrong to kill others, every person knows lots of different moral issues when we are born.
We need no God to tell us how to behave. We know how to do this, and in my experience, Religious folks are usually the first to throw stones when someone does something immoral, not the atheists.
I'm sure that there aren't many if any Catholics or other Christians today who proudly point to the inquisitions as an example of righteous living.
The point is that many atheists, including yourself, cite the inquisitions as they attempt to make a point of some kind in defense of their choice to not believe in God.
The inquisitions took place many centuries ago during the "dark ages" and most likely resulted in just a few thousand deaths:
"There were two major Inquisitions, the Medieval Inquisition and Spanish Inquisition. Although there are no exact numbers, scholars believe they have estimated Inquisition deaths reasonably accurately. There were not as many deaths as the popular press claims. Numbers have often been inflated to as high as 9 million by the popular press, with absolutely no scholarly research. This figure is completely erroneous.
A broad range of scholars, many of whom were not Catholic, have carefully studied the Inquisitions. They looked at all the existing records and were able to extrapolate. In the Medieval Inquisition, Bernard Gui was one of the most notorious of the medieval inquisitors. (so much so that the sick modern pornography industry has turned him into a hero). He tried 930 people out of which 42 were executed (4.5%). Another famous Inquisitor was Jacques Fournier who tried 114 cases of which 5 were executed (4.3%). Using numbers that are known, scholars have been able to surmise that approximately 2,000 people died in the Medieval Inquisition. (1231-1400 AD)"
Meanwhile in our own modern history to use only two examples, we have Mao Tse Tung an atheist who apparently murdered about 70 million Chinese, and Stalin, another atheist who apparently murdered about 51 million Russians.
Regardless of how close those numbers come to what really happened it should give reasoning atheists another point of view to consider before they blindly lash out at Religion as the cause of so much murder and mayhem on our planet.
I'm sure that there aren't many if any Catholics or other Christians today who proudly point to the inquisitions as an example of righteous living.
No, we point to it as an example of how religious people can be evil too. Most people are good, irrelevant of belief. Some people are bad, irrelevent of belief.
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The point is that many atheists, including yourself, cite the inquisitions as they attempt to make a point of some kind in defense of their choice to not believe in God.
No, the point was to point out that just because someone is religious does not mean they are good.
Quote:
The inquisitions took place many centuries ago during the "dark ages" and most likely resulted in just a few thousand deaths:
If even *one* believer has *ever* committed a gross atrocity against another person, it utterly destroys the idea that belief in religion makes bad people good.
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Meanwhile in our own modern history to use only two examples, we have Mao Tse Tung an atheist who apparently murdered about 70 million Chinese, and Stalin, another atheist who apparently murdered about 51 million Russians.
Regardless of how close those numbers come to what really happened it should give reasoning atheists another point of view to consider before they blindly lash out at Religion as the cause of so much murder and mayhem on our planet.
Which shows that, just like religious leaders who commit atrocities, evil people are evil regardless of belief (or lack thereof).
In addition, it shows an appalling morality on your part, comparing numbers killed as an attack on an alternative belief. Because by that mindset, a Christian who only kills, say, two-hundred-and-fifty-thousand people is "better" than an atheist who kills seventy-million.
In my opinion, *both* are evil. Belief doesn't enter into it. An atheist politician who murders his people is evil. A Christian priest molesting children of his church is evil. An atheist raping a woman is evil. A Muslim murdering an infidel is evil. An atheist robbing a store is evil. A Hindi robbing a Muslim is evil.
Evil acts are evil regardless of religion. Religion does not stop bad people from being bad. Often it serves merely to shield or facilitate their evil. Atheism, being nothing, is at worst narcissistic and egoist. But atheism it self *does not* speak on morality. Atheism is not a moral code and thus the actions of atheists cannot be attributed to atheism, but rather to their immediate, personal morals.
See, I don't buy the argument that Atheists are immoral. Some of the most moral people I know are atheists. You can be good without believing in a diety. This is part of the reason why I believe in some kind of "God", whether thats some collective consiousness or what ever it is. Every person knows its wrong to kill others, every person knows lots of different moral issues when we are born.
We need no God to tell us how to behave. We know how to do this, and in my experience, Religious folks are usually the first to throw stones when someone does something immoral, not the atheists.
It is my belief that every human is born with the God-given gift of "conscience." That connection with our Creator is a sure guide to righteousness unless we deliberately ignore our conscience and make choices that move us further away from God. God Himself is the standard of righteousness. As we choose to heed the promptings of our conscience and make choices accordingly, we become more and more like Him.
It is my belief that every human is born with the God-given gift of "conscience." That connection with our Creator is a sure guide to righteousness unless we deliberately ignore our conscience and make choices that move us further away from God. God Himself is the standard of righteousness. As we choose to heed the promptings of our conscience and make choices accordingly, we become more and more like Him.
You need to read up on the pathology of psychopaths.
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