Let's see proof of creation (Catholic, Christianity, principle, Christ)

[Boxcar Overkill]

Originally Posted by justamere10

Are you not aware that many Christians, including myself, accept evolution within species?

If you believe in evolution within species, you should also believe in evolution from one species to the next - because the latter is the natural consequence of the former.

In other words, successful breeding is contingent on having the same or similar DNA. If you accept evolution within species, then you accept that eventually the species will have such different DNA they will no longer be able to breed with the prior version of themselves. This will be a new species.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by AxisMundi

Firstly, however it is wrapped, Creationism is Creationism.

Secondly, I speak from experience, yes. I ahve family who are Mormons.

I also speak of the charletons who do your religion the greatest of injustice by creating "archeological evidence".

Well, I guess this is a thread about creating things.

And who might those "charlatans" be? Most thinking people have an opinion about almost everything that is of interest to them, but the official position of the LDS Church is that it has not been revealed by God where Book of Mormon events took place.

Brigham Young University has had an archaeological research facility in Mexico since I think the 1950's, but they deliberately go out of their way not to give even the appearance of looking for tangible 'proofs' of The Book of Mormon. The proof of that book is a spiritual one, as it says in the book itself. And God does respond to those who seek Him sincerely...

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by Mercury Cougar

No god or gods created me. My dad effed my mom, his sperm impregnated her, and nine months later I was born. It's not a miracle or a gift of god.

Your dad was not the one who created the sperm. Your mother was not the one who created the egg. In fact, the egg was present in the ovary of your mother when her ovary was formed in the womb of her mother.
And the sperm did, by the driving force of the Adam spirit, what the Adam creation was commanded to do in the beginning of creation, to be "fruitful and multiply".
All down through the ages, from the first Adam, the share of the Adam spirit which each Adam person is born in, has been obedient to perform, in its season, what the Creator of the spirits of all flesh commanded it to do; and you are the product of that obedience of the spirit called "Adam", which drove the sperm to seek the egg made ready by the share of the Adam spirit operating in your mother.
Your parents did not make themselves nor did they make you. The Adam spirit was the driving force which brought all things together at the pre-appointed season of your conception in the womb. You were made in the image of God and designed by Him, before you were conceived, by the Creator, who named you in His Book of Life before the foundations of the world, to come forth in your season, as a multiplied seed of the Adam, with the intention that you would be His own son for His own Glory to indwell.

[Georgiafrog]

Originally Posted by rifleman

It's true that we're all here. The question honestly asked by sanspeur is: what proof do you have, scientific or otherwise, that it happened YOUR way, instead of via The Big Bang and subsequent chemical assembly, chance occurrences and, eventually, the DNA building block.

What proof do you have that it all just poofed into being? (as I understand san's question).

As to your car analogy, it would be better said that you insist it was built by Chryler, and we insist it was built by BMW. Scientifically, we have photos of it being built in Germany, it has the stamp of that car manufacturer all over it, it came to this country on a German freighter, but you still insist it was made in Detroit by Chrysler. Why? Because you believe. Well, now, it's time for your prooof of it's alternate origin.

That's a much better analogy, don't you agree?

I think theists are a little too generalized here. I think I agree with you on how the car was made, except for the chance occurences. I think the primordial soup was stirred. I believe some sort of being started the big bang, and guided evolution. You cannot deny that it is a possibility, as I cannot deny there is a possibility that there is no God. I can prove my theory only to the same point you can prove yours. I believe what we know about the development of the Universe to be glimpses of God's vehicles of creation.

[sanspeur]

Originally Posted by Georgiafrog

I think theists are a little too generalized here. I think I agree with you on how the car was made, except for the chance occurences. I think the primordial soup was stirred. I believe some sort of being started the big bang, and guided evolution. You cannot deny that it is a possibility, as I cannot deny there is a possibility that there is no God. I can prove my theory only to the same point you can prove yours. I believe what we know about the development of the Universe to be glimpses of God's vehicles of creation.

True, but I think one day very soon life will be observed spontaneously generating in a lab....Science is getting very close. How Did Evolution Begin?

[Georgiafrog]

Originally Posted by kb09

This really makes no sense. God created everything right? If he created everything, then that includes sin.

FIY, what you just stated is purely belief and opinion (as is mine). There is no "truth" to it except the truth that pertains to you.



Not really. You can't look left and right at the same time can you?

This is really one of the exceptionally rare occasions where it's either or.

If your God is all-powerful and created everything, that means he would have to create the good and the bad. If he didn't create the bad, then he is not all powerful. Are you suggesting that we mere humans have a power great enough to challenge your God?



This is all quite circular tiget. Once again it predisposes us to the fact that either God is all-powerful or isn't. If he created people knowing that they'd sin and go to hell then he's pretty much an ass (because he is all-knowing, all-powerful and all everything right?). Since your God is all knowing and all powerful, that means he knew when he created some beings that they would sin and go to hell. If he didn't know or didn't create sin then he is not all-knowing or powerful.



In other words, our finite minds cannot see the infiniteness of God's greatness? Well if God can't seem to get his sh*t together without killing billions in the process, then he's not the type of guy I'd want to spend an eternity with or worship.



See, this is why you aren't taken seriously. Did you forget to read that whole spill about using a book to prove a concept from the book? It doesn't matter if it came from your imagination or not. If you can't use other sources outside of what the book says to provide evidence, your SOL.

No point in even trying to rebut your evolutionist comment. In one ear out the other as they say?

Plus, you (or tiget) haven't even attempted to answer the OP.

What evidence do you bring for creation?

It is entirely possible that a creator could be benevolent and omnipotent and still have things happen that are against his will. Perhaps the creator chose to create a universe in which there was free will. In that case, things that were against the nature of God could and would happen. Why create a world in which people had no choice but to worship the creator? We'd be a bunch of robots(some of us are anyway). This would also explain the lack of a flaming sword in the sky which would no doubt force us to believe. And perhaps the Christian idea of a flaming Hell is a bunch of flaming bullcrap?.

[Georgiafrog]

Originally Posted by sanspeur

True, but I think one day very soon life will be observed spontaneously generating in a lab....Science is getting very close. How Did Evolution Begin?

Interesting link. I'll try to follow it. But then, I could still say that this was the natural process that a creator used to begin life. I am more interested in explanations of the origin of the big bang.

[11thHour]

12 pages and no proof. So, I think it's safe to say there is no proof. Surprise, surprise. Sorry guys, seeing that something exists doesn't prove how its existence came about. No amount of reading a book that says so, or just believing it to be so, qualifies as proof. Faith is not proof. It's like chasing one's tail, asking for proof of creation. They can't provide it, so they instead say that 'Goddidit, that's just the way it is. I believe it to be so, therefore it is true.'

Ugh.

[kb09]

Originally Posted by dhdhdh33

There are some really large gaps in the evolutionary theory like where did anything at all come from much less the mathematically impossible convergence of life supporting materials spotaneously springing to life on Earth.

Ah hem. Once again. That's not evolution. That is abiogenesis. Evolution doesn't concern itself with how life came to be, it concerns it's self with how life adapts to it's environment. Jesus, is that so hard?

Originally Posted by justamere10

Are you not aware that many Christians, including myself, accept evolution within species?

Then why is it so hard to accept macro evolution? You do realize that micro-evolution leads to macro-evolution right? It's just a natural process (and would result if you logically thought about it).

If organisms are able to evolve internally and adapt to their environment (where group a can no longer breed with group b = new species), then it follows that overtime completely new species with distinguishable characteristics would form.

Ack. But this thread isn't about evolution, so this is all rather off topic.

Originally Posted by justamere10

God created this planet, set it in motion, put the lights in the sky etc. and things evolved over time and the interaction of elements. God created Adam and Eve, the first human parents, and gave them their agency, the power to CHOOSE for themselves. And mankind evolved over time and interaction with God and each other and their environment.

I liked your first version better before you said Adam and Eve. There wouldn't even be a human race if we started with just two people because we'd have a bottleneck population by about the second generation.

But whatever, this is still no evidence for creationism.

Originally Posted by justamere10

But I agree with your statement: "Proof of god is not required."

Which exactly what faith is. Believing despite the evidence. You see, that's where we differ. I believe because of the evidence. No evidence=no belief.

Originally Posted by justamere10

Trees, flowers, and clouds seem pretty objective to me.

But what you interpret them to mean and stand for is pretty subjective.

Originally Posted by justamere10

But sure, I know what you want, you want the tools and methods of physical science to prove to you that God lives even though they were not designed to do that.

I swear, your God is one whacked out guy. Why go through all the trouble? It kind of sounds like we are little puppets with your God as the puppeteer who is intentionally f*cking things up to get a laugh. Reminds me of the episode of Malcom in the Middle where Dewey compares us to ants and says God has the shovel that is used to smite us all for his own gratification.

But anyway.

Originally Posted by justamere10

But even if God made one of His rare appearances on earth and someone had a videocam rolling, it's not likely that people who are adamant that He doesn't exist would see that as "objective" anyway.

I'm pretty sure I would. I would be one of the first people there and one of the first ones to ask him why he created such a effed up place. But, just because I believed in him, doesn't mean I'd worship or respect him.

Originally Posted by justamere10

Among the best tools for discovering God are fasting and humble sincere prayer. Once God's Holy Spirit has witnessed to every particle of your being that HE LIVES, it's difficult from then on to deny it. That's what so many people are trying to get across to you!

Dude, don't be so ignorant. I was a Christian once upon a time. I believed, I prayed. It's just that those sermons in church and fuzzy feelings I got on the inside weren't enough to keep me from wondering and using "the brain God gave me," to explain all of what was going on. I couldn't buy into the belief that all the wrong in the world was for the greater good because even a mere human brain like mine could concoct a better plan that would still get the job done than the great one could. It also brought up the whole moral concept of do the means justify the end. Does all the hate in the world justify the "good" that your God will supposedly do? You may say yes. I give a loud hell no.

Originally Posted by justamere10

But I doubt that there are many atheists who would apply such a method, it's just not scientific enough even though there are probably a huge number of living witnesses who could do the "peer review."

Well, you really can't peer review personal testimony because it changes depending on who you talk to.

An example.

Did you know that eye witness testimony is actually one of the weakest forms of evidence in a courtroom? Want to know why?

Because everyone interprets and sees (or doesn't see) information in a host of different ways. The mind can play tricks on you and make you see things that didn't necessarily happen or can blank out things that did. That's why if you come into a courtroom with just an eye-witness on a murder case, you'll probably lose.

Jeez, watch My Cousin Vinny for more clarification.

[justamere10]

Originally Posted by 11thHour

12 pages and no proof. So, I think it's safe to say there is no proof. Surprise, surprise. Sorry guys, seeing that something exists doesn't prove how its existence came about. No amount of reading a book that says so, or just believing it to be so, qualifies as proof. Faith is not proof. It's like chasing one's tail, asking for proof of creation. They can't provide it, so they instead say that 'Goddidit, that's just the way it is. I believe it to be so, therefore it is true.' Ugh.

It seems that the scientific method and manufactured tools have let you down again. Pity. Perhaps you should have asked God if He exists, instead of someone who stayed in school a little longer than most, and read from science textbooks...