My problem with Christianity (translation, LDS, Muslim, Commandments)

[sous777]

Apology accepted. I likewise was not trying to insult Christians with this post. But as someone who supports equal treatment for ALL of Americas citizens, it still is not entirely clear to me the reasons/logic behind Christians' obsession with limiting gay rights.

You realize it is a sin. Fine. Since when are Christian defined 'sins' relevent as far as law making is concerned? If this was the case, it would be illegal to wear two threaded garments or go swimming.

I also find it interesting none of you have dissected my post and answered any of the questions. Use your Biblical verses...this is the third time I have offered, and no one has taken up on it.

Despite the personal attacks and insults hurled at me for questioning your religion, I have managed to stay calm and collected. It's almost like you can't ever question a Christian - question and get called "sinner", "hateful", or "angry".

Blindly accept anything you are told are you are fair game. . Again, I'm waiting on someone to answer the questions in my first post.

[Miss Blue]

Originally Posted by sous777

Apology accepted. I likewise was not trying to insult Christians with this post. But as someone who supports equal treatment for ALL of Americas citizens, it still is not entirely clear to me the reasons/logic behind Christians' obsession with limiting gay rights.

You realize it is a sin. Fine. Since when are Christian defined 'sins' relevent as far as law making is concerned? If this was the case, it would be illegal to wear two threaded garments or go swimming.

I also find it interesting none of you have dissected my post and answered any of the questions. Use your Biblical verses...this is the third time I have offered, and no one has taken up on it.

Despite the personal attacks and insults hurled at me for questioning your religion, I have managed to stay calm and collected. It's almost like you can't ever question a Christian - question and get called "sinner", "hateful", or "angry".

Blindly accept anything you are told are you are fair game. . Again, I'm waiting on someone to answer the questions in my first post.

And indeed you are a gentleman

[sous777]

Originally Posted by jco

To answer this, there really isn’t a problem from what I see. I’m not sure who argued that the issue is that homosexuals aren’t Christians (which is another topic to discuss), and therefore can’t be married. The issue is that marriage is a covenant before God between one man and one woman. Keeping this definition in mind, I’m not sure why homosexuals desire to participate in this covenant. Wouldn't a civil union be better suited?

Civil union, marriage whatever. I don't think most gays care about the name. It's the basic rights - health, financial, beneficiary, etc - that they are being denied that's important.

The problem though with your definition of marriage is that again politics and religion have become intertwined. So now you're calling marriage a "covenant before God" and it's also a legally binding contract. I'm sorry, but that's a serious problem.

Anytime you start bringing your God into legalities and legal contracts you start on a very slippery slope. How has marriage become a religious sanction? If it is then how is it that atheists or agnostics or Buddhists (who don't believe in a conventional 'God') are able to participate?

The answer is because they look to take advantage of the benefits awarded of marriage, not because they want, accept, or acknowledge a "covenant before God". I think you are confusing the two issues.

Originally Posted by jco

In response to the question about Christians imposing their beliefs on the government, I don't understand how an American using their belief system as a way to make decisions on morality and politics is wrong.

And there inlies the problem. You see nothing wrong with an American using THEIR belief system as a way to make decisions on morality. This is exactly the problem! A Christian may find it immoral (this word is tossed around far too often as far as I'm concerned) to be gay. They may use this judgement of "morality" to attempt to pass laws which limit or deny rights to groups they find "immoral".

It's called separation of church and state, a concept that as all but been lost. Since when are someone's personal religious convictions a sound reason to deny someone else equal rights? If you went to Iraq and they said they found Americans immoral, and denied you equal rights, yet still expected you to pay taxes, would that be okay?

If they said, because you are American, you cannot have these rights, because we find you immoral. Yet, we have have no problem letting jailed Iraqi murderers, child abusers, and rapists marry because they're Iraqi!

Somehow, I don't think that kind of logic would go over to well with you. This is no different. They afterall, would be using their "belief system" as a way to make decisions about morality and politics.

Originally Posted by jco

To suggest that a person should have to put aside their religious beliefs to participate in government doesn't seem right to me. A Christian cannot cast off their identity in Christ whenever they please. Not if they're a true Christian. I often, on this board, hear that Christians should a) leave behind their identity and then participate in government, or b) go off an be a little hermit and have nothing to do with politics. To me, this argument doesn't seem logical.

And you'd be the first to object if someone gay were participating within the government and started rallying for equal gay rights. The first thing you'd most likely say is, "those gays, always pushing their lifestyle down our throats". Yet you see nothing wrong with this same behavior from Christians.

[pladecalvo]

'Civil Partnerships' are legal in the UK. Everything seems to be working out just fine!!

[jabogitlu]

Well, marriage is legal in Canada and (as you know, pla) Spain (et. al.) and things seem to be working out just fine there, too! My bff who lives in Canada keeps urging me to move so I can marry.

[pladecalvo]

Originally Posted by jabogitlu

Well, marriage is legal in Canada and (as you know, pla) Spain (et. al.) and things seem to be working out just fine there, too! My bff who lives in Canada keeps urging me to move so I can marry.

Do it dude! .....and good on ya!!

[kawgpz550]

Sorry, this ended up being A LOT LONGER than I had originally intended!


Again I'm sorry about before...but it is really hard to debate this and not come across as offensive. I also have remained calm, but calmness is really hard to portray over a computer screen...Please do not take anything that is said PERSONAL! The words we read rarely possess the true emotion behind our posts I will do my best, however, to try and keep things a bit more low key....if I get off tune, I apologize in advance, but please keep in mind that I am in NO WAY trying to offend you or anyone else, just simply trying to debate effectively

Ok...now keeping this a bit more civil:
Now, in a sense I am probably doing the same thing I was accusing you of earlier as far as comparing homosexuality with race...but.......
Wouldn't keeping Christians from participating in politics or even telling us to NOT involve our religious beliefs in our political views be about the same thing as telling Hispanics to not use their ethnical background as a basis in voting on issues such as immigration? Or refusing to let them vote because of their ethnical bias? That really wouldn't be fair would it? And honestly, wouldn't that be the same thing as telling YOU or any other homosexual that you cannot vote OR use your sexual oriented bias to vote on gay issues? I'm sorry, but to me that would be the exact same thing. You would not want to be told that you cannot vote on gay issues because you are gay, would you? Nor would you want to be forced to keep your bias out of your political views.

Now, I will do my BEST to at least TRY and answer some of your OP questions...maybe not ALL or to great length as it is rather long.

1. Why is it you try and push your definition of "morality" into government policy, essentially using mass societal acceptance of religion and religious philosophy, to limit the rights of others (namely gays)?

Again, this is pretty much what I just explained above. We use our Christian beliefs in our political views pretty much the same way as you use your sexual orientation to persaude your vote. Sure, there are probably gays that are opposed to gay marriage, just as there are Christians that are ok with and vote FOR gay marriage.
As for using scripture to rebuttal...Yes, there is mention of homosexuality in the old and new testaments.
I am going to give you the same verses you quoted but using the Amplified version. The Amplified version gives extra detail in the verse to make it more easily understandable...BUT I am also giving the verses before and after your chosen ones...see if this helps:
John 5
30 I am able to do nothing from Myself [independently, of My own accord--but only as I am taught by God and as I get His orders]. Even as I hear, I judge [I decide as I am bidden to decide. As the voice comes to Me, so I give a decision], and My judgment is right (just, righteous), because I do not seek or consult My own will [I have no desire to do what is pleasing to Myself, My own aim, My own purpose] but only the will and pleasure of the Father Who sent Me.
31 If I alone testify in My behalf, My testimony is not valid and cannot be worth anything.
32 There is Another Who testifies concerning Me, and I know and am certain that His evidence on My behalf is true and valid.
33You yourselves have sent [an inquiry] to John and he has been a witness to the truth.

For the second piece of scripture you gave, I am going to give you a LARGER chunk of it and I will BOLD what you quoted (again, Amplified) BUT, I have ALSO bolded another verse for you (verse 11):
John 8
10 When Jesus raised Himself up, He said to her, Woman, where are your accusers? Has no man condemned you?
11 She answered, No one, Lord! And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more.
12 Once more Jesus addressed the crowd. He said, I am the Light of the world. He who follows Me will not be walking in the dark, but will have the Light which is Life.
13 Whereupon the Pharisees told Him, You are testifying on Your own behalf; Your testimony is not valid and is worthless.
14 Jesus answered, Even if I do testify on My own behalf, My testimony is true and reliable and valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from or where I am going.
15 You [set yourselves up to] judge according to the flesh (by what you see). [You condemn by external, human standards.] I do not [set Myself up to] judge or condemn or sentence anyone.
16 Yet even if I do judge, My judgment is true [My decision is right]; for I am not alone [in making it], but [there are two of Us] I and the Father, Who sent Me.
17 In your [own] Law it is written that the testimony (evidence) of two persons is reliable and valid.(B)
18 I am One [of the Two] bearing testimony concerning Myself; and My Father, Who sent Me, He also testifies about Me.
19Then they said to Him, Where is this [b]Father of Yours? Jesus answered, You know My Father as little as you know Me. If you knew Me, you would know My Father also.

If you read those verse thoroughly, you will notice He did NOT admit to ebing a false witness

Originally Posted by sous777

Your Bible. Your religion. Your beliefs. Acceptable arguments only in your home, your church, and in your life. Not in those who wish not to take part in your religious beliefs. Therefore, your disapproval of certain lifestyles does not give you a right to pass and/or advocate legislation that would discriminate against these groups.

Again, I am not being mean or nasty here, I just want to REword your quote:
Your sexual orientation, your beliefs...acceptable arguments only in YOUR home and in YOUR bedroom and in YOUR life, not in those who wish to NOT partake in homosexuality or their beliefs. Therefore YOUR disapproval of Christianity does not give yu the right to pass judgement and/or dictate what Christians can or cannot vote for or against, that too would be discriminating agains Christians because of their "religion" which is against the constitution (freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion)

Originally Posted by sous777

Another argument used for the disapproval of gay marriage is the fact that it's a sacred, Christian sanction, and by allowing gays marriage rights this would be compromised. Fair enough.

Ok, yes...marriage is a sacred Christian sanction and although murderers and rapists and all other male/female unions are allowed to marry you must remember a couple of things. #1 MOST mainstream fundamental churches (such as Baptists) and/or their pastors will NOT marry these people unless they have had biblical counsel before hand and the pastor is convinced of them being right with God. Of course there are exceptions here, but as far as being married in most churches, this is pretty firm. The Catholic church (or at least the ones that I am personally familiar with) are even MORE strict about who they allow to marry than us Baptists The exceptions would be, first of all being married by a self proclaimed pastor or reverend somewhere OUTSIDE of the church, such as banquet room, your back yard etc. (which I find complete IRONY in how easy it actually is to obtain the title of reverend. I don't know how or why, but it is just FAR too easy to obtain this. On the internet just about ANYONE can become a reverend and have the LEGAL capability to marry people ). But as far as most (not all) fundamental churches go...the pastor would make sure that the couple had been biblically counseled and made sure that the couple was indeed right with God.
#2 Marriage by the Justice of the Peace...now, this part would have NOTHING to do with Christianity. This is completely on the federal and state guidelines. Being refused to be married by the justice of the peace should not negatively affect Christians. I understand and even empathize with your dismay here. But you have to understand that Christians are NOT the ONLY people voting. Ok, maybe Christians dominate the polls, but we are not the only voters. However, if Christians are the vast majority of the votes that are against gay marriage...then it is going to be extremely difficult to persuade that many people into going against their beliefs and values. But I honestly do wonder how the outcome would turn out if there were NO Christians at the polls. Even though the Christians may be the majority of your NO votes, we are NOT the ONLY ones voting NO...so please take that into consideration . What are your feelings toward the NON-Christians that are voting against gay marriage? Christians at least have a religious, spiritual reason for voting no, but what about the non-christians and their convictions?

Originally Posted by sous777

Example: homosexuality. Many Christians adamently allege that homosexuality is a sin. A choice. An abomination. This despite the findings from the American Psychological Association. Now the APA is made up of a number of highly respected psychologists, neurologists, psychiatrists, and human sexuality experts, among others.

They have researched, studied, and analyzed homosexuality extensively. Their findings: they all unilaterally agree that it is not a choice. It is not abnormal. And it is not something that can be changed.

Who knows...for all we know, maybe they came up with these conclusions NOT to add validity that homosexuality is biological, but MAYBE because the government and/or other entities conspired (I don't mean this as a negative conspiracy or to sound like I am one of those conspiracy theorists ) and concluded these "findings" and/or "proofs" in an attempt to eleviate some of the narrow mindedness and/or discrimination of gays. Does that make sense? Honestly...I DON'T KNOW how biological homosexuality is...I am NOT homosexual therefore perhaps I just cannot relate. But in pretty much every Christian heterosexual mind...it is a CHOICE. PLEASE DO NOT HOLD THIS AGAINST ME and take this out of context of what I am actually trying to get across...But honestly, you DO have the CHOICE to change. Maybe you do not feel it was a choice to be gay, but you DO have the CHOICE to change ...but you choose not to change...right? Ok, some say "then that would be living a lie". Maybe so. However, there have been PLENTY of gays that have heard the gospel and were convicted by the Holy Spirit and have converted to being Heterosexual. I am not saying that this was an easy choice and I am sure that the transformation would be VERY VERY DIFFICULT...and I am SURE that the desire would never leave completely. (please don't misunderstand my intention here either...not really trying to label homosexuality as an addiction like drugs or alcohol...just trying to give a comparison ) Just about every drug addict that has ever kicked the habit STILL has plenty of days wanting that "high". Just like almost all ex-smokers still have cravings even if they gave up cigs 20 years ago. It's HARD to break addictions and habits. Again, I'm not trying to compare you to an addiction. I am simply trying to express how hard it is to quit ANYTHING that we become accustomed to. But it CAN be done...that is why so many Christians see homosexuality as a "choice" rather than biological...does that make sense without sounding like we are such terrible people?
And just a little FYI...what I said about the "conspiracy" to eleviate discrimination...I am not saying that, that is absolutely true, so please don't make me out to be an idiot because of that suggestion...it was just a "thought" for lack of much better. Maybe it IS genetic and biological and maybe God really did make homosexuals that way. WHY? I HAVE NO IDEA! Maybe so we can sit here on city data and debate about it What do ya think?

Originally Posted by sous777

2. Why are you always so concerned with the "sins" of others?

Why do we concern ourselves with YOUR sins...or the sins of others? Well, of course there are the extremists, like with anything else...however, for ME and most of the Christians that I personally KNOW...it is because WE LOVE YOU just as Jesus loves you and it is our duty witness to ANYONE that doesn't know Christ and lead you to Him. Even if you resist and do not welcome or want us to, it is our duty to try to win people to Christ...we are not supposed to simply stay quiet.
I'm too tired to look up specific verses right now...lol, but it is in the Bible that we are to go out and spread the news. That's what we are trying to do, however, there are a lot of people that go about it the wrong way and do it CONDEMNINGLY (is that a word? If not, you get the idea ) rather than LOVINGLY as Jesus intended.
Why does it matter to us? Because we love you. Just as I love my children! When I see one of my kids going down the wrong road and/or heading for disaster, it is my duty as their parent to try and correct them and show them why it is wrong and explain what the consequences are. As a Christian, it is pretty much the same thing, just different context. Make sense?
Why so much time on the sins of gays and lesbians? Again...because WE LOVE YOU!

Originally Posted by sous777

3. Why do you choose to ignore some verses while focusing on others?

I really cannot go into great detail here as it is late. But I will try to give you a tip of the iceburg...lol
I have said this before on a different thread:
IMHO, yes, there are some verses that we Christians tend to push aside and say..."that was misinterpreted" or "that is outdated" or ?????
Yes, we are guilty of not abiding by EVERYTHING. We are human and we are sinners...we are NOT PERFECT! For example...women not speaking in church. Some say that it is misinterpreted and that this came into effect because of the women speaking loudly and disrupting services etc. This may be true, I really do not know...I am NOT a Bible scholar! I do not have the ability to analyze every verse and determine the foundation for it. I pretty much accept what it says and just figure we are just plain WRONG and move on with it...no what I mean?
But while some things may be misinterpreted, there are still others that we Christians still feel hold complete validity and homosexuality is one of them. Before you asked why homosexuality is so much more condemned and talked about than murder and rape etc. Well, there isn't much we can do to "preach" and teach about murder or rape to every single person. Everyone KNOWS that these things are wrong, and offenders are prosecuted and put in prison for these things. Sooooo....maybe (this is just a thought) it is because everyone KNOWS that murder and rape are WRONG because it is something that is done forcefully against other people (hurting others whereas homosexuality doesn't really have a "victim" so to speak unless it is a homosexual rape). I'm tired and having a hard time concentrating here
But just because there are no "victims" of homosexuality like there are victims of rape and murder, doesn't mean that people are not still going to be convicted of the fact that it is deemed morally wrong. I know that gays do not like being considered as immoral...but, unfortunately, that is the way it is deemed in society...not just by Christians, but ANYONE that is against homosexuality. One doesn't have to be a Christian to be appauled or taken back my moral issues. I'm SURE that we can all come up with plenty of conversation regarding those other "sins" but at hand it is the issue of homosexuality. Gay marriage is what is in the political agenda, not murder, not rape...laws are already in affect for those.

Originally Posted by sous777

According to your Bible, Jesus loved and accepted everyone. Somehow I don't see that same acceptance among "Christians" today.

I'll just leave you with this verse:
John 8:11 ....And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more.

Ok, so I lied! I did hit on ALL of your topics and it is VERY LONG I hope you're ok with this! It took me like 2 1/2 hours to get through this lol

Sometime tomorrow I will be more than happy to respond to any further questions you may have. Also, feel free to PM me if you would like to go further and not in the public domain
And even if you are not accepting of this, please know that you will be in my prayers...and everyone else that replies will be in my prayers as well. This is a hot topic and we all need prayer and divine guidance while trying to address this.
Take care, goodnight and God Bless!

[sous777]

I appreciate you taking the time to anseer. But still, I do not understand your logic. Just because you personally think something is immoral does not give you the right to pass laws which limit these "immorals" rights.

That's what this keeps coming back to.

[sablebaby]

Great post sous!

I grew up basically agnostic (my grandmother who raised me is a catholic). As I grew up I looked into some religions and spoke with people who are christian and those who are atheist. I find I really don't like how many christians act, speak, and so on. I think they hide behind a bible and don't use their brain to use logic. If you go on any atheist board you will find some intelligent, thoughtful people who want answers. I don't find that with christians much, I see them as always judging others and fighting. This is just my opinion!

[dncngrl1964]

Originally Posted by sous777

I appreciate you taking the time to anseer. But still, I do not understand your logic. Just because you personally think something is immoral does not give you the right to pass laws which limit these "immorals" rights.

That's what this keeps coming back to.

There are the laws of God and then there are the laws of the land

unless you wanted to die for that piece of gum you stole from the store in 2nd grade
besides I don't know of anyone who went to jail for being gay
anyway... I digress

What you are actually saying is you don't want this moral compass because it specifically applies to you

well let's make it a different law
it is immoral to kill but I think my next door neighbor is a total ass so i think that law is impeding my rights

or it is also immoral to steal

but i really want that 60" plasma tv down at Circuit city so THAT law is impeding my rights

you have to take it as a whole
there are several laws out there that on a daily basis impede on someones "rights" you can't pick and choose