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well look at hitler he was a greedy land coquering freak from hell.. japan thought they could gain some new real estate while the us was fighting germany's hitler. we invaded iraq to guard the oil.. we invaded afgh to guard oil ifrastructure..but yes religion plays a lot of roles in war.
The Catholic and Protestant Churches in Germany set the foundation for WWII and Hitler's atrocities to occur. Popes, priests and nuns supported Hitler's regime. Indeed, Hitler could not have come to power without Christianity's help.
The Catholic and Protestant Churches in Germany set the foundation for WWII and Hitler's atrocities to occur. Popes, priests and nuns supported Hitler's regime. Indeed, Hitler could not have come to power without Christianity's help.
I knew there would be at least one atheist willing to do the fancy footwork.
Germany had been Christian for around a thousand years without annihilating its Jewish population. Christians objected to the euthanasia program against the disabled and was eventually able to stop it. I don't think there is anything historically Anti-Romany/Gypsy in Christianity, but Nazis certainly liked killing them.
So you have centuries of Christian Germany not doing these things and Nazi Germany doing things totally unrelated to any Christian culture. However a century after Ernst Haeckel popularized a racist version of *Darwinism in Germany you get the Holocaust. Think about it.
*The point is not that Nazism is caused by evolution, which is scientifically valid and mostly accepted by me, but that pseudoscience played a greater role in most of Nazism than Christianity did.
Normally when one plays the godwin's law card of ad-hitlerium card, the discussion is over, yet I do not think Melvin implied that ol' adolf was a direct result of xianity.
It is a known fact that the RCC were essentially silent and in a way endorsed this megalomaniac and his crew, do I need to post links and photos?
Normally when one plays the godwin's law card of ad-hitlerium card, the discussion is over, yet I do not think Melvin implied that ol' adolf was a direct result of xianity.
It is a known fact that the RCC were essentially silent and in a way endorsed this megalomaniac and his crew, do I need to post links and photos?
Exactly...their toleration of slavery across nearly two milleniums exceeded their ww2 head turning but if the truth were known there were probably just as many dead Blacks as dead Jews because of what they did not do.
Normally when one plays the godwin's law card of ad-hitlerium card, the discussion is over, yet I do not think Melvin implied that ol' adolf was a direct result of xianity.
It is a known fact that the RCC were essentially silent and in a way endorsed this megalomaniac and his crew, do I need to post links and photos?
Many things that are "known facts" are basically just a mix of popular prejudice and simplification.
The Catholic community was not universally aligned on any issue. However we do know that Nazis usually did poor in Catholic provinces of Germany, that Pope Pius XI criticized elements of the Nazi state in "Mit Brennender Sorge", and that in the Netherlands the Catholic Church was quite critical of Nazism. Archbishop Johannes de Jong apparently said Dutch Nazis should be refused Eucharist. (The kind of action now deemed "an appalling mix of faith and politics.")
I would agree that all too often Catholic leaders were neutral, indifferent, or cowardly. At times I think this was understandable. The protestation of the Dutch Catholics seemed to only get them killed and not do much good. Or at least that might have been how it appeared. Also it was fairly mainstream among Catholics to believe that, although you may refuse unjust mandates, you can not take it on yourself to be "a law of your own." So if the Nazi state tells you to kill an innocent Jew you refuse, but if the Nazi state tells you to repair the railroads you may feel obligated to obey. You do not join rebellions for fear of creating anarchy.
Now in the case of Croatia there does seem to have been some connection between Catholic leaders, at least local ones, and the pro-Nazi Ustashe. Unlike Nazism itself, with its Protestant Reich Church and celebrations of paganism, the Ustashe defined themselves as Catholics. Although they had clear racial elements they also had goals concerning converting minorities to Catholicism. For Croatian Catholics of a Nationalist bent this might have made them appealing in a way Nazism "straight" would not be. In parts of the Germanic world Nationalist feelings were at times high, many Austrian Catholics seem to have been quite pro-Nazi, so some felt they should support any Pan-Germanic movement even if they might disagree with some details. However even in the Germanic world you had Alfred Delp and Bernhard Lichtenberg.
What religion are the Wall Street bankers? They are often said to be behind most modern day warring.
I can't believe you opened that door. Have you ever read much about Prescott Bush, father of George Herbert Walker Bush and grandfather of George W. Bush?
George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
Files in the US National Archives reveal that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.
His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave laborers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.
The evidence has also prompted one former US Nazi war crimes prosecutor to argue that the late senator's action should have been grounds for prosecution for giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
I feel that religion is at the heart of the U.S. vs. Iran and Afganistan wars.
Osama perhaps (tape to be authenicated) has threatened U.S. again... if the U.S. continues to support Isreal harm will come to the U.S. he warned.
Coming late to the thread, I'd say that Crusader made a valid point that works both ways - wars are started for human reasons. religion or indeed, irreligion may be a feature of it but I don't think the blame game helps in the religion debate.
Even looking at the first crusade, whether it was about religion or securing trade routes, increasing papal authority, giving something for barons to do other than try to unseat kings, it all became all too human very quickly.
Crusade's point about 'atheists say' is arguable. If they do they ought to rethink. Such a view - that religion started all wars - is simplistic to the extent of fallacy. It is clear that the generality of atheist posters here recognize that. At the same time, religion doesn't have the clean hands that some theists might wish. Atheists certainly do argue that point.
Of course not. Human Nature starts every war. Greed and a desire to expand one's territory or simply obliterate those who disagree with us is what wars are about. I don't think most Atheists would claim that Religion per se starts wars. People with hidden ( and not so hidden ) political agendas start wars. Religion is merely a rallying point for the masses.
I would say that many wars were started with Religion as an excuse as it helps to galvanise public support if one has a seemingly "worthy" excuse . The Crusades were a perfect example of mass manipulation of the common people , exploiting their superstition and telling them that their souls would be redeemed by the killing of "Infidels". When what it was actually about was politics and economic interests.
Basically we start wars because we want to but need some kind of justification to condone our murderous actions. Religion is an excellent starting point to make the populace pliable to becoming gun-fodder. It allows a certain lack of challenge. Humans are by nature apathetic and need a "cause" to whip them into a frenzy. Religion is excellent at that.
But Religion is nothing more than smoke and mirrors as what truly motivates people is greed, selfishness and the unquenchable lust for power and territory. Atheist or Religious all of us are quite capable of the worst evils. It is within all of us.
Religion does not have a monopoly on bellicose behaviour. Atheists are perfectly capable of their own atrocities. Religion does make it easier by making promises of redemption and salvation though.
Atheist dictators and mass murderers use different means to entice people to follow, such as exploiting certain feelings of grievance towards the "enemy". It is not done in the name of Atheism but in the name of human nature which is at least a little more honest. IMO. The result is the same though, Whether a child lies murdered at the hand of a Christian, Muslim, Hindu or Atheist it is still a dead child.
I can't think of a war started under the Guise of spreading Atheism. Atheism might be a factor of the regime but not its excuse. Atheism might be a component of the equation but not its basis. When the hatred of Religion is present in a regime it is usually more on socio-political grounds and power shifts than anything else.
Atheism is not really a proletysing force. Religions having been the power-houses of pretty much all cultures for millenia have simply given a potent excuse to displace it to some power hungry people. A visible symbol of oppression and as such an easy target for some cunning dictators keen to exploit socio-economic dissatisfaction for example.
Atheism has been an expression of a power-shift maybe but not of an ideological construct for political advancement.
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