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OK, I got the idea of starting this thread because of a couple of the posts (I'm sure you know who you are ) on Montana Guys thread: What Is Your Motivation For Debating On The Religion Forum?
This is more a question for the Atheists and Agnostics.
I understand that the Atheists belief in there being NO God/Gods is as strong as as a Christian's belief that there IS.
My question is this:
What is so terribly wrong with believing in God? (With the exception of differing views on things such as homosexuality and abortion...and please don't turn this into a discussion of those topic , there are enough threads about those) Is there really any harm being done by believing in God even IF by chance there is no God? Please explain what your issue is with believing in God?
I, personally, would rather believe that there IS a God (and you KNOW I DO ) and live my life accordingly, than to take the chance of basing everything I do in life on scientific merit and logic and NOT believe in God, only to find our He really DOES exist in the end.
I'm not intending this to be sarcastic or anything like that at all...
I'm just curious what is so wrong in believing in God that would make one want to sway another into NOT believing in Him?
For the record, I am not really out to convince people to not believe in god.
For the sake of argument, there is something to be said for the truth. There are consequences to believing in a lie. There is time wasted on Sunday mornings in church. There is the money spent on a big building that ultimately signifies nothing. There is the (admittedly irrational) hatred of fundamentalist lunatics like the Westboro Baptist Church goons. There is the fact that christians (and other religious types) often spend time and effort to force others to their will (stem cell research, anti-gay marriage, abortion, abstinence education, action against science education).
If you know something to be a lie, don't you feel obligated to tell your friends that they are being deceived?
OK, my usual info: Believe in God, don't believe in the NT happenings and statements attributed to Jesus. So...non-Christian.
I think I know what you're saying--but you are missing the point that one can not MAKE oneself suddenly start believing in something. How is that possible?
Let me put it to you this way. You've probably heard similar analogies before but please, listen, just really listen to what I'm saying here. Please don't just roll your eyes and dismiss it at the first sentence.
Okay...imagine trying to believe in Santa Claus.
Seriously. NO eye-rolling, I said! (I know some of you out there are rolling your eyes) Did you stop rolling? Good. Okay. Try to believe in Santa Claus. I mean really try. Seriously.
Let me help convince you. First of all, good people believe in Santa Claus. Nice people. Don't you want to be good and nice? Why do you want to be cynical? Could Satan be covering your eyes from the truth?
Look, Santa has a history. Saint Nicholas (Santa for short, I'm getting tired of typing) was a living, breathing human being. He was written about. I can supply you with actual quotes and commentary if you'd like. In addition, there were innumerable eye witnesses.
We KNOW Santa brought presents. This is a FACT. It's not in doubt. We KNOW that even the church recognizes this individual!
We KNOW he did good deeds. You can't possibly doubt this.
Now, here's the tricky part: After Santa died, he rose again and now lives at the North Pole, where he is immortal. Every year he brings presents. Every single year. Or, well...he did at first. At first, people would wake up, and...there would be the presents! Why? Because they BELIEVED.
Then people began to doubt. And you know what happened when they doubted? Santa stopped coming. And so today, we have to give *each other* presents instead. We do this over and over and over again and have, for hundreds of years, and will for a thousand years, or maybe even two thousand, or more...to show Santa our faith. If we hang in there long enough with it, Santa will come back and will give us the presents.
But guess what--people who DON'T believe will not only NOT get presents...but they will be thrown into a huge pit of fire. All day, every day. For eternity. Santa loves you! But if you don't believe in Santa he will kill you daily (figure that one out). He will turn his face away and party and keep playing with all the presents in the Place Where the Believers Went. But for you? You'll be screaming, begging and on fire but he'll just refuse to acknowledge you. Too bad! You should have believed.
Oh WHY didn't you just believe...
Okay. Now do you believe in Santa? Why not? I'll bet it's for cynical reasons. You've never seen Santa. You don't believe he rose and went to the north pole because that can't be proven. You know what? None of that stuff is IMPROBABLE or anything...the reason you doubt is either because Satan has taken up residence inside you, or, well, you're just stubborn. You're CHOOSING not to believe. Because you're basically a nasty person. And because deep down...you hate Santa. Admit it, you know you do.
Okay...does this sort of story sound like b*ll**** to you?
Um, yup. It sounds like b*ll**** to us non-Christians, too.
p.s. I feel sorry for all of you, who have never felt Santa's great love. There is no love greater than that of Santa, well I mean, for people he isn't destroying and throwing into a pit of fire for eternity. I think you're AFRAID of that love. I think that's why you so deliberately *reject* such a sweet soul. I mean how could you? Have you ever seen a picture of Santa? He's so cute. Only a hideous Satan-influenced creep could possibly not love this man. Because when he's being nice (and not throwing people into fire) he is the MOST loving thing, ever.
Santa said: Bring all the little children to me; and forbid their stockings not. Why do you think he said that? Because children are gullible and will believe anything? NO, of course not...there's your cynicism again! It's because children's hearts are wide-open. Verily I tell you all, until the day you reverse in time and go back to believing in Santa as literally as you did when you were four, you will remain in earth's limbo, waiting to be judged and thrown into fire.
I grant you that you have some points there. St. Paul said in Corinthians essentially that if our faith is for this life only and there is no resurrection of the dead, then we are the most miserable of people.
Something to consider.... however, St. Paul was MORE than convinced that Jesus exists and that there is a resurrection of the dead and so am I.
I would say, Stretch, too though that for all your negatives, there are some trade-offs. For one, I think faith can be a "stabilizer' to your life. Sometimes it isn't but often it is. It kinda provides a rudder for your life. Also, I think about relationships my husband and I have made in the body of Christ. We have some extremely close friendships and they were all made in church. Sure, you can have friends outside the body of Christ, but there is something about the bonding of common faith that really cements those friendships IMHO.
If you experience a personal tragedy, it's often the body of Christ, not your own family that gets underneath you and undergirds you during your "dark night of the soul."
Another point about the "wasted" finance, much of the intake of a church is not merely geared to soul-winning but also care of the needy etc. So I see some advantage there too. These are just some that come to mind right off hand...
For the record, I am not really out to convince people to not believe in god.
For the sake of argument, there is something to be said for the truth. There are consequences to believing in a lie. There is time wasted on Sunday mornings in church. There is the money spent on a big building that ultimately signifies nothing. There is the (admittedly irrational) hatred of fundamentalist lunatics like the Westboro Baptist Church goons. There is the fact that christians (and other religious types) often spend time and effort to force others to their will (stem cell research, anti-gay marriage, abortion, abstinence education, action against science education).
If you know something to be a lie, don't you feel obligated to tell your friends that they are being deceived?
I completely understand where you are coming from, however, I could take what you said 100% in regards to ANYTHING EXCEPT for when it comes to God and one's soul (and yeah, I know you <atheists> don't believe in a soul either >). But what if you're wrong and have to face God someday and explain why you led one of His weak spirited and confused children astray?
Nothing is really wrong with it, I'm just convinced that there is no God. In all honesty, I think the possibility that there is a God is far less than my chance of winning the PowerBall Lottery with a single ticket. I got into a discussion with one of my Step-Father's relatives once and he said that he thought it would be a good idea to act as though there was a God just in case it's really true. I can't agree with that point of view because even if I took his advice it wouldn't be a sincere faith, it would be a sham because I don't believe it in my mind or my heart.
OK, my usual info: Believe in God, don't believe in the NT happenings and statements attributed to Jesus. So...non-Christian.
I think I know what you're saying--but you are missing the point that one can not MAKE oneself suddenly start believing in something. How is that possible?
Let me put it to you this way. You've probably heard similar analogies before but please, listen, just really listen to what I'm saying here. Please don't just roll your eyes and dismiss it at the first sentence.
Okay...imagine trying to believe in Santa Claus.
Seriously. NO eye-rolling, I said! (I know some of you out there are rolling your eyes) Did you stop rolling? Good. Okay. Try to believe in Santa Claus. I mean really try. Seriously.
Let me help convince you. First of all, good people believe in Santa Claus. Nice people. Don't you want to be good and nice? Why do you want to be cynical? Could Satan be covering your eyes from the truth?
Look, Santa has a history. Saint Nicholas (Santa for short, I'm getting tired of typing) was a living, breathing human being. He was written about. I can supply you with actual quotes and commentary if you'd like. In addition, there were innumerable eye witnesses.
We KNOW Santa brought presents. This is a FACT. It's not in doubt. We KNOW that even the church recognizes this individual!
We KNOW he did good deeds. You can't possibly doubt this.
Now, here's the tricky part: After Santa died, he rose again and now lives at the North Pole, where he is immortal. Every year he brings presents. Every single year. Or, well...he did at first. At first, people would wake up, and...there would be the presents! Why? Because they BELIEVED.
Then people began to doubt. And you know what happened when they doubted? Santa stopped coming. And so today, we have to give *each other* presents instead. We do this over and over and over again and have, for hundreds of years, and will for a thousand years, or maybe even two thousand, or more...to show Santa our faith. If we hang in there long enough with it, Santa will come back and will give us the presents.
But guess what--people who DON'T believe will not only NOT get presents...but they will be thrown into a huge pit of fire. All day, every day. For eternity. Santa loves you! But if you don't believe in Santa he will kill you daily (figure that one out). He will turn his face away and party and keep playing with all the presents in the Place Where the Believers Went. But for you? You'll be screaming, begging and on fire but he'll just refuse to acknowledge you. Too bad! You should have believed.
Oh WHY didn't you just believe...
Okay. Now do you believe in Santa? Why not? I'll bet it's for cynical reasons. You've never seen Santa. You don't believe he rose and went to the north pole because that can't be proven. You know what? None of that stuff is IMPROBABLE or anything...the reason you doubt is either because Satan has taken up residence inside you, or, well, you're just stubborn. You're CHOOSING not to believe. Because you're basically a nasty person. And because deep down...you hate Santa. Admit it, you know you do.
Okay...does this sort of story sound like b*ll**** to you?
Um, yup. It sounds like b*ll**** to us non-Christians, too.
p.s. I feel sorry for all of you, who have never felt Santa's great love. There is no love greater than that of Santa, well I mean, for people he isn't destroying and throwing into a pit of fire for eternity. I think you're AFRAID of that love. I think that's why you so deliberately *reject* such a sweet soul. I mean how could you? Have you ever seen a picture of Santa? He's so cute. Only a hideous Satan-influenced creep could possibly not love this man. Because when he's being nice (and not throwing people into fire) he is the MOST loving thing, ever.
Santa said: Bring all the little children to me; and forbid their stockings not. Why do you think he said that? Because children are gullible and will believe anything? NO, of course not...there's your cynicism again! It's because children's hearts are wide-open. Verily I tell you all, until the day you reverse in time and go back to believing in Santa as literally as you did when you were four, you will remain in earth's limbo, waiting to be judged and thrown into fire.
I'll pray for you.
Ok, but the question was...
I'm just curious what is so wrong in believing in God that would make one want to sway another into NOT believing in Him?
I'm not asking why you don't believe...I understand that already
Paul may have been more than convinced. In fact, he may have made the whole thing up.
I did list a bunch of negatives because that is what the OP asked for. Sure, there are going to be some positives as well. The question is whether the positives outweigh the negatives. I think that they do not.
As for personal tragedies, friendships and the like. Been there, done that. My life has had its ups and downs. I have had good friends and bad. I have needed help, gotten it, and not. What I have not needed was a magical silent invisible friend.
As for taking care of the needy, I am a bit suspicious. Sure, some churches do. Without seeing an audited balance sheet to prove otherwise, I suspect that giving to a church is a way for a huge amount of your donation to go to overhead.
But what if you're wrong and have to face God someday and explain why you led one of His weak spirited and confused children astray?
I would tell god that it was his fault. He set up the universe in such a way as to show that his existence was not necessary. He set up my experiences in such a way as to make me skeptical of supernatural events. He hid proof of his existence from me. He made the other person susceptible to my arguments.
Lets face it. If there is a god in the way that you conceive of him, he could arrange things in a way so that I would believe, and still have free will. After all, you claim he is omnipotent.
For the record, I do not believe in free will either.
If you know something to be a lie, don't you feel obligated to tell your friends that they are being deceived?
This is a good point and as an atheist I agree with it, just as Christians feel obligated to back up an opposing point of view. We could debate proof of existence until the cows come home (Epicurus, The Euthrypro Dilemma, etc.), it's what makes sense to the individual. I haven't found one good reason that explains the existence of a theistic god, including any rational or scientic evidence. What's wrong with believing in the theistic god, other than it's false? Nothing as long as one doesn't impose that view on another human being, which doesn't happen. I honestly don't want to offend anyone, but IMO religion is and always has been dangerous. All you have to do is read the paper or listen to the radio.
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) on Montana Guys thread: What Is Your Motivation For Debating On The Religion Forum?
, there are enough threads about those) Is there really any harm being done by believing in God even IF by chance there is no God? Please explain what your issue is with believing in God? 
) and live my life accordingly, than to take the chance of basing everything I do in life on scientific merit and logic and NOT believe in God, only to find our He really DOES exist in the end. 
Faith's advantages
