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PS - Although you will not believe me because what I have to say does not fit your paradigm. You will likely assume that I speak out of ignorance because I could not possibly be right about this. But, I knew Christ. I had an intimate, personal relationship with Him. We were connected. He was as real to me as anything. He was my friend and my God and my Savior. No one knows the conversations I had with him in earnest, heart-felt prayer. I loved Him with the most intense compassion and gratitude as possible. I felt his comfort and acknowledged his hand in my life. I relied on him; trusted in him. He was as real to me and as alive as anything. You can claim that I never knew Christ, but I know that I did. My experience matched the descriptions of those written of in the Bible.
But, the Living Christ was nothing more than a figment of my imagination. He was an imaginary friend for whom I invested intense emotions in. My mind created this entity that I experienced as something separate from myself. I saw blessings and answered prayers and miracles where there were none. I felt attachment and intimacy with a construct my mind created. I received wondrous love from my own d*mn brain.
I get why it is so believable. It seems real. Why not trust our perceptions at face value, right? Most people will never venture past that; and I am ok with that. You will undoubtedly find some way to interpret my words in a way that fits into your worldview. I suppose we all do. I wonder why we bother communicating as we filter everything another person says through our own filters - our paradigms - our worldview. Information and experiences that do not fit our expectations, that we cannot assimilate or integrate into our beliefs, we reject as invalid. Anyway, I digress...
Hello Hueffenhardt,
I believe that you believed that you knew Christ, and I believe that you were as intense as the most devout Hindu who experiences power and visitations from spirits posing as gods.
I have a nephew who lived with me for some time [my late brother's son] when he was young, and he "accepted" Jesus Christ as Savior, and was intense about it, but he returned to Mormonism, married a Mormon, and has six children. He is the most devout Mormon one could meet, maybe even more devout a Mormon than you were [but I do not know], and he does all that you said you did, and yet, in his devoutness, there is not a relation with Jesus the Christ, but a relation with seducing spirits who deceived him to believe a lie about the person of the LORD Jesus Christ.
"Who Jesus is" will not be contradicted by the Spirit of holiness, who comes to testify of Christ, to us, and not to give us signs that books are true. Christ is the Truth.
The Bible says seducing spirits seduce away from the One True God and into worship of demons.
Because my dad was into eastern religions, I know for a fact that there is power in other religions, so power and manifestations do not prove something is true. My dad had "visitatioons" who told him things which he believed, but he did not believe Jesus Christ. -What is truth? -Jesus Christ is the Truth.
Do you know what a seducing spirit is? I know that you won't believe in seducing spirits, having rejected the spirit world, but there is a spirit/satan that shape shifts to a form like the angels of light, so as to deceive 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.He also comes as an angel of light and preaches another gospel, through men who have received him and his satans as angels of light.
That is what the Bible teaches us, and Enoch informs us much on what the purpose of the satans is, for deception.
Satans can also shape shift to other forms, to deceive and lie to people. They can be lying spirits in the mouths of false prophets Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.The satans, with a chief Satan over them, were created, according to the ancient writings, to tempt, test, and try angels and men. That is their purpose, and those who believe them against the Word and Spirit of God are then accused in heaven, before the throne.
And it all is about who Jesus is, and what His work is, on behalf of mankind, that the seductions are all about. Religion is the most damning thing in that religious people who are satisfied with religion do not "thirst" for righteousness in Christ, to be filled with Him.
^^Do you know who the Holy Spirit is? The Holy Spirit reveals all truth, and cannot decieve. I dont know that you know Christ. How do you know the Bible is true?
Can we make a video about your shape shifting satan spirits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Yes, we are undoubtedly a proselytizing church, but you will never, ever, ever see an LDS-made movie intended to mock the beliefs of another Christian church. You can go into any LDS bookstore and you will never see a section on "cults" with books describing other denominations. Walk by any other Christian Church anywhere in the world, and you will not see Mormons standing just yards from the front doors, screaming obscenities at people going to worship or holding up posters saying that their leaders are going to Hell. We focus on what we have to offer and never ridicule, misrepresent, or demean other churches as part of our effort to convert people. There is an enormous difference in the tactics of these so-called Christians and us in how we proselytize.
One of the wonderful traits of the Church.
A few years back when the Utah Jazz were playing the Chicago Bulls in the NBA finals, the Jazz had just won a game. Dennis Rodman of the Bulls had some crude remarks about Mormons (he was fined the largest amount in NBA history for it, $50,000). I remember watching on Sportcenter that night , where the commentator wondered what the response would be from the LDS Church officials. I remember thinking; "what response" , why would they respond to that. Sure enough, there was no response. It was beautiful.
Yes, we are undoubtedly a proselytizing church, but you will never, ever, ever see an LDS-made movie intended to mock the beliefs of another Christian church. You can go into any LDS bookstore and you will never see a section on "cults" with books describing other denominations. Walk by any other Christian Church anywhere in the world, and you will not see Mormons standing just yards from the front doors, screaming obscenities at people going to worship or holding up posters saying that their leaders are going to Hell. We focus on what we have to offer and never ridicule, misrepresent, or demean other churches as part of our effort to convert people. There is an enormous difference in the tactics of these so-called Christians and us in how we proselytize.
This is a relatively recent trend in Mormonism. I think on another thread I pointed out how thick the disdain Mormon leaders had for Catholic priests and protestant preachers. The endowment used to feature a sectarian priest in the employ of Satan. The Journal of Discourses has many sermons as full of mocking and derision of non-Mormon Christianity as the most rabid derisions of Mormonism offered by Evangelicals today. For most of Mormon history, it was understood and taught by prophets and apostles that the Catholic Church was the "wh*re of all the earth" that is talked about in the Book of Mormon.
So, Mormonism may have had a relatively recent change of heart, but before you casts stones at others for persecuting Mormonism, remember that Mormonism is not without sin for committing this same offense for most of its history.
Just one comment, Hueff. You know that's not what Joseph meant. He was the prophet when he made that statement and was saying that when he was speaking on behalf of the Lord, in his prophetic calling, he was acting as the prophet. When he was speaking on behalf of Joseph Smith, "the man," he was not acting as "the prophet." The fact that a person has a calling in the church does not make everything he says "gospel truth." At least that's what I always learned growing up. You see, I was taught from a very early age not to believe everything I heard spoken from the pulpit as the word of God. My father, who was a brilliant man, was a deep thinker who encouraged me to question everything that didn't sound quite right to me. I can remember him rolling his eyes and muttering under his breath at some of the things I told him I'd learned in Seminary. He helped me sort things out and not just throw things out. Your search for truth obviously led you in a different direction, but your implication seems to be that the only reason there are any practicing Latter-day Saints left is that they haven't stopped to question what they've been taught. I can tell you from personal experience that that's simply not the case.
Oh, I readily acknowledge that there are a fair number of Mormons who have questioned what they've been taught. I was an amatuer apologist for the Church for a while. I accepted the apologetic explanations for things, such as Brigham Young was only speaking as a man when he taught the Adam-God doctrine. We postMormons refer to all that as mental gymnastics, trying so hard to make it all work, to explain away any difficult or challenging piece of evidence. It is a herculean task and I acknowledge that there is a lot of thinking and cognitive work involved.
What I realized is that these mental gymnastics don't actually work, especially not for the Book of Abraham (and I really tried to make them work and have been exposed to them all). But, not even these new rules about what constitutes doctrine (must be in standard works or be a proclamation by the First Presidency) does not really work and is not intellectually honest.
Ask your average member at church if a prophet is acting as a prophet when they preach during general conference or when they write the script for the endowment ceremony. Almost everyone you ask would say, yes. But, that is not the answer you want to hear. Only those who have had to make up arbitrary, after the fact, rules to somehow deal with things like the Adam-God doctrine, would say that prophets aren't acting like prophets when they write the script for the lecture at the veil.
It felt so good to let go of all the mental gymnastics and realize that there was no need for all that. The simplest explanation and the only one that really works for all the data (especially the Book of Abraham) is that the religion is false.
Oh, I readily acknowledge that there are a fair number of Mormons who have questioned what they've been taught. I was an amatuer apologist for the Church for a while. I accepted the apologetic explanations for things, such as Brigham Young was only speaking as a man when he taught the Adam-God doctrine. We postMormons refer to all that as mental gymnastics, trying so hard to make it all work, to explain away any difficult or challenging piece of evidence. It is a herculean task and I acknowledge that there is a lot of thinking and cognitive work involved.
What I realized is that these mental gymnastics don't actually work, especially not for the Book of Abraham (and I really tried to make them work and have been exposed to them all). But, not even these new rules about what constitutes doctrine (must be in standard works or be a proclamation by the First Presidency) does not really work and is not intellectually honest.
Ask your average member at church if a prophet is acting as a prophet when they preach during general conference or when they write the script for the endowment ceremony. Almost everyone you ask would say, yes. But, that is not the answer you want to hear. Only those who have had to make up arbitrary, after the fact, rules to somehow deal with things like the Adam-God doctrine, would say that prophets aren't acting like prophets when they write the script for the lecture at the veil.
It felt so good to let go of all the mental gymnastics and realize that there was no need for all that. The simplest explanation and the only one that really works for all the data (especially the Book of Abraham) is that the religion is false.
How relieved you felt to let go of holding on to lies, and how hard to face the truth it was. Some who know it is a false religion remain in it because it is just a social thing for them, and they do not care, will not debate, and just go along to get along.
In another post you mentioned that the older Mormons knew the things in the video and were taught them, but after 1984 that was not the case. I want you to know that my studies of Mormonism came before 1984, and it was common knowledge and not hard to discover the original microfished printed copies of all the Mormon writings from the archives at that time.
I have a whole book of printed microfished copies of Mormon writings from the Mormon archives, that do show all these things, and more, but today, no one can go in and microfish or picture or access those writings so easily as they formerly could. Mormonism definitely has evolved and is evolving, but they have never, ever, refuted the doctrines as reported in that cartoon, but excuse them and make up things about why it is not Mormon beliefs, after all, and not taught, and etc; or even that it is okay because God said it [like the curse of black skin and the desired skin color as white [now changed to the word "pure"], as the BOM teaches it.
Can we make a video about your shape shifting satan spirits?
By all means, do, for behold, "is it not written in the Book of Jasher" [meaning the Correct/Upright, Record]! Jos 10:13, 2Sa 1:18 2Cr 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming/metaschēmatizō themselves into the apostles of Christ. 2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed/metaschēmatizō into an angel of light.2Cr 11:15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed/metaschēmatizō as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
And Abraham went with Isaac his son to bring him up as an offering before the Lord, as He had commanded him.
And Abraham took two of his young men with him, Ishmael the son of Hagar and Eliezer his servant, and they went together with them, and whilst they were walking in the road the young men spoke these words to themselves,
And Ishmael said to Eliezer, Now my father Abraham is going with Isaac to bring him up for a burnt offering to the Lord, as He commanded him.
Now when he returneth he will give unto me all that he possesses, to inherit after him, for I am his first born.
And Eliezer answered Ishmael and said, Surely Abraham did cast thee away with thy mother, and swear that thou shouldst not inherit any thing of all he possesses, and to whom will he give all that he has, with all his treasures, but unto me his servant, who has been faithful in his house, who has served him night and day, and has done all that he desired me? to me will he bequeath at his death all that he possesses.
And whilst Abraham was proceeding with his son Isaac along the road, Satan came and appeared to Abraham in the figure of a very aged man, humble and of contrite spirit, and he approached Abraham and said to him, Art thou silly or brutish, that thou goest to do this thing this day to thine only son?
For God gave thee a son in thy latter days, in thy old age, and wilt thou go and slaughter him this day because he committed no violence, and wilt thou cause the soul of thine only son to perish from the earth?
Dost thou not know and understand that this thing cannot be from the Lord? for the Lord cannot do unto man such evil upon earth to say to him, Go slaughter thy child. And Abraham heard this and knew that it was the word of Satan who endeavored to draw him aside from the way of the Lord, but Abraham would not hearken to the voice of Satan, and Abraham rebuked him so that he went away. And Satan returned and came to Isaac; and he appeared unto Isaac in the figure of a young man comely and well favored.
And he approached Isaac and said unto him, Dost thou not know and understand that thy old silly father bringeth thee to the slaughter this day for naught?
Now therefore, my son, do not listen nor attend to him, for he is a silly old man, and let not thy precious soul and beautiful figure be lost from the earth.
And Isaac heard this, and said unto Abraham, Hast thou heard, my father, that which this man has spoken? even thus has he spoken.
And Abraham answered his son Isaac and said to him, Take heed of him and do not listen to his words, nor attend to him, for he is Satan, endeavoring to draw us aside this day from the commands of God.
And Abraham still rebuked Satan, and Satan went from them, and seeing he could not prevail over them he hid himself from them, and he went and passed before them in the road; and he transformed himself to a large brook of water in the road, and Abraham and Isaac and his two young men reached that place, and they saw a brook large and powerful as the mighty waters.
And they entered the brook and passed through it, and the waters at first reached their legs.
And they went deeper in the brook and the waters reached up to their necks, and they were all terrified on account of the water; and whilst they were going over the brook Abraham recognized that place, and he knew that there was no water there before.
And Abraham said to his son Isaac, I know this place in which there was no brook nor water, now therefore it is this Satan who does all this to us, to draw us aside this day from the commands of God.
And Abraham rebuked him and said unto him, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan, begone from us for we go by the commands of God.
And Satan was terrified at the voice of Abraham, and he went away from them, and the place again became dry land as it was at first.
And Abraham went with Isaac toward the place that God had told him.
God's holy angels can appear as men, also, or as whatever they need to appear as, to get the job done for righteousness:
Quote:
Enoch 17 And they took and brought me to a place in which those who were there were like flaming fire, and, when they wished, they appeared as men.
Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
And YHWH Elohym, in the persons of the Word and the Holy Spirit, appeared to Abraham as a burning lamp/light and a smoking furnace: Gen 15:17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
And the Holy spirit appeared in the form of a dove: Luk 3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
-and there is more.
And then there was the Flame of Fire in the bush, that Moses saw and heard.
Oh, many things are easily accessible now. The entire Journal of Discourses are online now and a great many other things. Volume 1 | Journal of Discourses
How relieved you felt to let go of holding on to lies, and how hard to face the truth it was.
If letting go of Mormonism felt, yeshuasavedme, just imagine how thrilling it must have felt to let go of Jesus Christ. And letting go of a belief in God must have been absolutely exhilarating.
If letting go of Mormonism felt, yeshuasavedme, just imagine how thrilling it must have felt to let go of Jesus Christ. And letting go of a belief in God must have been absolutely exhilarating.
He let go of false religion, as he said, and it was a crushing thing for him to actually do the research and discover that he had been trained up to believe false teachings, as he said.
And the Jesus Christ of Mormonism is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible -but you know that. The name was taken from the Bible, but that is all that is the same about the two. Mormonism's Jesus is another Jesus, not the Jesus who is the Creator of all things, who made all things by Himself for Himself, and who is come in human being flesh of a second Man creation.
The Jesus Christ of the Bible is not a created creature, but is the Creator, come in flesh of that second Man creation, for His own donning of it, like one would put on a garment. He is the "LORD from heaven" who put on the garments of Kinsman made new, for His donning, to be the Kinsman to the Adam race, so as to be the legal Redeemer of the Adam race.
The Jesus Christ of the Bible is the only Person in YHWH Elohym whom any creature has ever or shall ever see the face of, as God. From eternity to eternity, the Unseen Person in YHWH is only seen in the face of Jesus Christ.
God and the Lamb are "One", and there is only one face for "God and the Lamb" Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Rev 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name [shall be] in their foreheads.
Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
No one sees any face of YHWH, the Living Spirit, but in the face of Jesus the Christ come in flesh.
Before the incarnation, no creature had seen His face, nor can they.
But the "Son" -the Person of YHWH the Word, who dwells in the Bosom of the Unseen Father- has revealed Him to His own adopted sons.
This is Bible doctrine, but anyone who researches simply, and not even in depth, discovers that the Mormon Jesus is a different Jesus, and that the "Mormon gospel" is another gospel, given by a different than the Spirit who gave us the Bible through holy men of God, who spoke by His Spirit, testifying to Christ. al 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 2Cr 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him].
You know, I don't think I'm going to participate on this thread any more. I've said pretty much all I want to say to Hueff, and you, yeshuasavedme aren't worth the time it took me to write this post. If you are a representative of "true Christianity," and if your Lord and God are pleased with the kind of Christian love and charity you practice, believe me when I say I am honored to worship a different God and a different Jesus. Quite frankly, if I had to spend five minutes in Heaven with you and yours, I'd much prefer Hell. (And don't even ask me what I'm really thinking.)
By the way, you are now officially on my "ignore" list, so should you post anything in the future that I don't respond to, don't wonder why. I won't be seeing any more of your pathetic, hateful drivel. You really will at last be INVISIBLE to me! (I just learned about this function or you'd have disappeared a long, long time ago.)
Last edited by Katzpur; 05-14-2010 at 10:07 PM..
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