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On this we do agree, Jeff, I think the carm website does leave open the possibility that to be a universalist, you may or may not be a true Christian. He indeed leaves it kind of nebulous, open for discussion. I do see what you're saying there. But of course, Matt Slick sees universalism as a very serious doctrinal error so I think he is entitled to his opinion as are you, yours.
As for as my statement about "pollyanna-ism", I only apply that to irishmom! I think her perky, sweet optimistic views on life influence her theology to a great extent. I hope she doesn't find my statement of that to be offensive because she's at the beach this week unable to defend herself!
On this we do agree, Jeff, I think the carm website does leave open the possibility that to be a universalist, you may or may not be a true Christian. He indeed leaves it kind of nebulous, open for discussion. I do see what you're saying there. But of course, Matt Slick sees universalism as a very serious doctrinal error so I think he is entitled to his opinion as are you, yours.
As for as my statement about "pollyanna-ism", I only apply that to irishmom! I think her perky, sweet optimistic views on life influence her theology to a great extent. I hope she doesn't find my statement of that to be offensive because she's at the beach this week unable to defend herself!
LOL...I wasn't offended about the pollyanna-ism comment, but thanks for clarifying. I already know from the "spirit" of what you write that you never try to be mean or anything close to it.
Matt Slick is indeed entitled to his opinion. I just don't like his views and they way he insinuates that Universalists may or may not be saved! I, unlike him and others like him, will not stoop to judging some one elses heart condition with their Creator. We will know them by their fruits!
Regarding an earlier comment regarding the "narrow way" to heaven and the "broad way" to destruction, I believe what Jesus is teaching in the story of the narrow gate, and other such stories about how difficult it is to attain true salvation, is not that most souls will spend eternity in hell, but simply that most souls are not ready yet for heaven. Jesus is warning people that if they do not try as hard as possible to follow the path of the Spirit during their life, they will not be ready to enter heaven when they die. Instead, they will have to endure the purgatorial "fires" of hell for a time, in order to be perfected. If we do not submit to these purifying fires of spiritual tests and challenges during our life on earth, we will still have to face them eventually -- which means after death -- for it is God's plan for all souls to be saved in the end.
People who refuse to walk in the way of God, choosing for themselves a life of materialistic riches, gluttonous pleasure and self-absorbtion, rather than faithfulness to the Lord and selfless service to their fellow man, will indeed find themselves on the outside of heaven looking in after they die. Their ego will be deflated and destroyed. They will feel the burning fires of regret and loss within their consciousness, knowing that they wasted a chance on earth to strive to grow closer to God and to live in a godly way. They will have to endure difficult lessons prepared for them by God to help their soul rise above the things of the flesh which they had so enthusiastically embraced in their disdain for the things of the Spirit.
Hope this clarifies how I interpret alot of hell verses.
Last edited by jeffncandace; 06-25-2007 at 10:09 AM..
Reason: adding paragraph
As for as my statement about "pollyanna-ism", I only apply that to irishmom! I think her perky, sweet optimistic views on life influence her theology to a great extent. I hope she doesn't find my statement of that to be offensive because she's at the beach this week unable to defend herself!
Back from the beach...*sigh* Don't worry Kay we're cool. Even when we don't agree you always play along with me and get me...I like that about you.
Last edited by irishmom; 07-04-2007 at 06:53 PM..
Reason: spelling again
Fom another thread claiming the Word says everyone will eventually be saved.
1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved
1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time
1Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world
Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself
Col 1:16-By Him all were created
Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live
1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live
Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved
Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come
Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all
1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God
Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy
Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live
Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth-
Ps 46:10-God will do all His pleasure-
Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed
Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth
Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts-
Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps-
La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever
Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things
Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him
Ps 145:9-He is good to all-
Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works
Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall-
Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws them.
Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself
Now let us take those verses in context and see what is actually said. If you do not claim a belief in Christ this really does not apply to you.
1 Timothy 2:
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
He indeed wants us all to be saved...but what does the bible say about rejecting this ransom?
John 3:
35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 4:
41And many more believed because of his own word;
42And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
Yes, He came to save the World....but not all in the World will accept His saving Grace. Hence the whole of the World will not be saved.
John 12: 26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
33This he said, signifying what death he should die.
34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?
35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.
36While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
As for Colossians 1:16 we as Christians have no doubt who the Creator is... but that has nothing to do with whether or not all will be saved.
Let us though continue in the chapter:
17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Here again nothing is said of the entire earth being saved, but we can be reconciled to Him through His blood.
Romans 5: 1Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Not all but many...and only through Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:
1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain....
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
It again does not say here all will be saved, but that He died for all. But His gift must be accepted.
Romans 11: 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Does not speak to the whole of the Word being saved.
Ephesians 2
4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Titus 2: 11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
1 Corinthians 4:
4For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
5Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
And every man shall praise Him, that does not mean every man will be saved.
James 5:
1Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. ...
19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Nothing again about all being saved, just that God is a god of mercy.. hence He sent His Son....
John 5:
21For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Those are the verses from the NT, and how nothing states we will all be saved, even those who reject the Son. It says quite the opposite.
MBG
The answer is YES. Zephaniah 3 9 "Then will I purify the lips of the peoples, that all of them may call on the name of the LORD
and serve him shoulder to shoulder.
I abjure Hell and brimstone Christinsanity as the brayer of the divine protection racket! There is no rational need to have someone to pay the price of the Atonement: one simply forgives period!
Sarah Palin makes as much sense as haughty John Haught, Alister McGrath, Paul Tillich and Alvin Platinga. The distinguided Prof. Irwin Corey makes more sense!
Sealh.
Religions try to make a follower out of you. If you do not follow, then you will not be saved - or a variation of this is always there - especially in the religions originating form middle east. Trouble is, many do not even seem to ask basic questions (what about Buddhists, Hindus etc - why does god hate them so much? What about people who have not heard your side of the argument and do not even know the "consequences" of such blind faith?). I think such promises of being saved are as real as the tooth fairy.
I don't know of any religion that teaches that all will be saved. Instead, all of the major religions teach their followers that they're the only ones that will be saved and everybody else is in for an unpleasant eternity. I think that point of view is very clearly stated in the religious texts of Christianity and other religions as well. Religion seems to be a competition for the greatest number of followers and they don't seem to think very highly of each other. Personally I don't think anyone is going to be saved from death and I don't believe that our behavior on planet earth is going to change the reality that people die and their existence ends at that point.
This will be short, but hopefully concise. In my studies which have been very extensive for the past ten years, which I might add was the same time frame that God pulled me out of the organized church system, I have learned some amazing things.
I agree with universal restoration for many reasons. First of all, if God is love, then why would He throw people in a real furnace of fire to endlessly roll around in sheer torment forever? I wouldn't even do that. Am I more loving than Him? I don't think so. So, the nice little old lady down the road who lived a good life and was kind, but never managed to come to Christ is going to experience the same torment as Hitler??? I don't think so.
What I think a lot of Christians are not realizing is that we experience the second death also. It's called death to self. Those "few" who actually get it right here and now will rule and reign with Him in His Kingdom. Those who don't will go through the fire also and lose their soul (psyche). Since there was nothing good in them, when the fire has accomplished its purpose, there will be nothing left of them except for the spirit, or spark of life God gave them in the first place. In other words, if we saw Hitler after his experience, we wouldn't say, "hey, its Hitler". We wouldn't even know it was him, because all of him would be gone.
Secondly, the Bible speaks of levels of punishment. Those who have done much wrong will receive greater punishment, and those who have done less will receive less. Makes perfect logical sense. And did you notice that God calls them all servants. That is because we are all servants. One God, one creation. That is why Christ told his disciples that he now considers them friends and not servants, because they were to attain their salvation in this life.
When Yahshua died and rose again, He purchased the WHOLE world, not just the people, but the whole creation. That is why, upon His return, He will speak and the armies will melt before Him and He will take over the rulership of this world with no problem whatsoever, because the power of God goes before Him because it is His.
Another problem with eternal damnation is the "little flock" vs the "great multitude" that no one could number. How is that reconciled? The little flock is the first fruits and the co rulers with Christ and the great multitude is the final restoration. Nothing else makes sense.
I will be happy to see that you are pleasantly surprised MontanaGuy on that Day.
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Don't worry Kay we're cool. Even when we don't agree you always play along with me and get me...I like that about you.
Little flock
