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I can't remember who said this, but it was essentially a long the lines of "there are so many jobs out there now that it's your fault if you're not doing well."
You're wrong. You're dead wrong. I grew up in a mess in Appalachia. People from here have nothing. They don't have the opportunity wealthy suburbanites have. A kid in the middle class of Nashville has far, far better opportunity than a kid from my side of the rails.
If you grew up in MA, CT, NY, etc., you were blessed and had so many advantages you'd never know or realize compared to us Tennessee poor.
I'm not having it. As Henry Ford said: "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, either way, you are right."
Read Jack Ma's story. Read "Colonel" Harland David Sanders' story. Read John McCain's story.
There are literally millions of people who have overcome far more than you need to overcome. Whatever income you are willing to work for, hard and intelligently, will be yours, end of statement.
I come from hillbilly stock (on my Dad's side). Tough people. Not necessarily well-educated, but can be quite intelligent. More importantly, they personify what Clint Eastwood said in character as "Gunny" Highway:
Mathjak has written many times that he grew up poor in the projects. He made a number of good life decisions and had the willpower to have a lot of deferred gratification that created some wealth.
I think there is a middle ground here. Most economically successful people had good parenting. They were taught to make good life decisions. That dramatically increases your odds. The way you compensate for poor parenting is through education. We need to be on-message with all the life decisions that make people successful. Our schools largely don’t do that and a union elementary school teacher with the 2% pension vesting likely doesn’t have a very good handle on personal finance math. The whole country can’t be union public sector workers.
I think you may very well have named one of the major factors in generational poverty - the point that the public schools don't do a good job of teaching, for lack of a better term, "successful life strategies" and in particular personal finance. I learned that from my parents, with very little help from school.
The point about deferred gratification is valid, too, IMHO. Dr. Thomas Sowell said something to the effect that if you have high time preference, that is, you will take a lesser reward to get the reward now, you are low class or will become so, and if you have a low time preference (deferred gratification) you are upper class or will become so.
In my case, they are generally backed up by numbers.
Your "numbers" have been repeatedly refuted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReachTheBeach
It's not so much a bias against success; I am successful. I am biased against the attitudes of some successful people who don't seem to care about the poor, blame poverty on them and don't think that the money to help them should come from the people that have it.
No amount of money can help those in poverty, because poverty is a mindset.
People in poverty don't even think the way everyone else thinks.
For people in poverty, their entire world is their home and the couple of blocks around it. They live in the Here-and-Now, with no concern for Tomorrow. You can steal anything you want -- money, clothes, cars, cell-phones, but don't steal someone's boyfriend or girlfriend, because that, is an unforgivable offense.
The differences are best seen when dining at a fancy restaurant. For the Wealthy, the issue is, "How was the atmosphere and presentation?" For the Middle Class, it's "How did the food taste?" And for the poverty folks, it's "Did you get enough to eat?"
My 81-year old uncle was born into poverty, but did quite well, not Wealthy, but upper Middle Class, yet he still displays that poverty attitude when he makes comments like, "I dropped $100 at the Maisonette and was hungry an hour later."
The Maisonette -- before it burned down -- was one of the few 5-Star Restaurants in the US, and you don't go there to gorge yourself. If you want to gorge yourself, you go to Homer's Smorgasbord, pay $7.50 and eat all you want. The purpose of going to the Maisonette, was to enjoy the atmosphere, everything from the Maitre'd to the Wine Captain to the various servers who present courses, and marvel at the presentation of the appetizer, salad, main course and dessert by a internationally renown chef.
Throwing money at those in poverty is not going to change their mind-set, but what will change it is people.
For those who have made it out of generational poverty, they will tell you it wasn't money, it was one person -- a mentor, a friend outside their social class, a teacher or even a boss that broke down the walls around their little world and showed them something awesome.
So, if you want to end poverty, then you need to focus on individuals, instead of throwing money at them.
No amount of money can help those in poverty, because poverty is a mindset.
People in poverty don't even think the way everyone else thinks.
For people in poverty, their entire world is their home and the couple of blocks around it. They live in the Here-and-Now, with no concern for Tomorrow. You can steal anything you want -- money, clothes, cars, cell-phones, but don't steal someone's boyfriend or girlfriend, because that, is an unforgivable offense.
No wonder you have been successful. Reading minds to know what others think is quite a talent. I never realized that all the people in poverty are of one mind. I thought they were individuals.
No wonder you have been successful. Reading minds to know what others think is quite a talent. I never realized that all the people in poverty are of one mind. I thought they were individuals.
The Civil Rights era helped break millions out of poverty. There are many of all backgrounds who have risen out of poverty and many who because of life events have fallen into.
I'm not having it. As Henry Ford said: "Whether you think you can, or think you can't, either way, you are right."
Read Jack Ma's story. Read "Colonel" Harland David Sanders' story. Read John McCain's story.
There are literally millions of people who have overcome far more than you need to overcome. Whatever income you are willing to work for, hard and intelligently, will be yours, end of statement.
I come from hillbilly stock (on my Dad's side). Tough people. Not necessarily well-educated, but can be quite intelligent. More importantly, they personify what Clint Eastwood said in character as "Gunny" Highway:
"Improvise. Overcome."
No one is saying it is impossible for the poor to overcome poverty. My father did it. However, the difference is he had a lot of help. This included the GI Bill following World War II. Cheap college expenses. A growing economy. A locality where others were willing to do modest things to help him succeed.
Everyone doesn't get those breaks. Still some escape poverty. However, the overall percentage of those escaping poverty is lower than those who had the fortune to get some of the breaks my father got.
Its a numbers game and if you start life in a weak position you are considerably more likely to end up poor and without a retirement than if you begin in another position. That's what we are trying to say. Talking in absolutes is useless.
Threads like these seem to jump from the rich to the poor. I often wonder about the middle class. I know so many people who make decent money but are by no means 1% ers. They are upper middle class for sure.
But still I do not see how they can pay the mortgages on these giant suburban homes, gas up two new SUVs, have kids in all kinds of afterschool programs like dance and sports, take several vacations a year AND still save for retirement. I've lived in 5 different states and the suburbs are all the same. New construction giant homes with mom, dad and 2 or 3 kids. And pass any school during the 2-3pm hour and there are all the pick up lines out front. So whoever is picking these kids up isn't working full time or at least not a typical salaried job that wants you there 50-60 hours a week. So one parent's job pays for all of this?
We are in our 40s and don't have kids. And we could afford much more than we have right now. But I'm truly afraid of being broke in retirement. But I don't see this in a lot of other people. We still have a lot of friends and family in Florida. I cannot tell you how many people we know who were or are underwater on their mortgages, up to their eyeballs in debt and STILL have Disney passes. Not tickets, they pay over $1k per person to have passes to go over and over. So now when I see people living like ballers, I honestly suspect that they likely aren't saving for retirement and/or they are in serious debt. They can't all be surgeons and hedge fund managers.
No amount of money can help those in poverty, because poverty is a mindset.
People in poverty don't even think the way everyone else thinks.
For people in poverty, their entire world is their home and the couple of blocks around it. They live in the Here-and-Now, with no concern for Tomorrow. You can steal anything you want -- money, clothes, cars, cell-phones, but don't steal someone's boyfriend or girlfriend, because that, is an unforgivable offense.
The differences are best seen when dining at a fancy restaurant. For the Wealthy, the issue is, "How was the atmosphere and presentation?" For the Middle Class, it's "How did the food taste?" And for the poverty folks, it's "Did you get enough to eat?"
My 81-year old uncle was born into poverty, but did quite well, not Wealthy, but upper Middle Class, yet he still displays that poverty attitude when he makes comments like, "I dropped $100 at the Maisonette and was hungry an hour later."
The Maisonette -- before it burned down -- was one of the few 5-Star Restaurants in the US, and you don't go there to gorge yourself. If you want to gorge yourself, you go to Homer's Smorgasbord, pay $7.50 and eat all you want. The purpose of going to the Maisonette, was to enjoy the atmosphere, everything from the Maitre'd to the Wine Captain to the various servers who present courses, and marvel at the presentation of the appetizer, salad, main course and dessert by a internationally renown chef.
Throwing money at those in poverty is not going to change their mind-set, but what will change it is people.
For those who have made it out of generational poverty, they will tell you it wasn't money, it was one person -- a mentor, a friend outside their social class, a teacher or even a boss that broke down the walls around their little world and showed them something awesome.
So, if you want to end poverty, then you need to focus on individuals, instead of throwing money at them.
No wonder you have been successful. Reading minds to know what others think is quite a talent. I never realized that all the people in poverty are of one mind. I thought they were individuals.
so why are you posting all these threads about those who can't save and what are we going to do about it when we don't even know who "they are " or the reason why they can't save based on their own circumstances ?
Last edited by mathjak107; 05-31-2018 at 02:52 AM..
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