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Do you know what dwarfs plastic bags as a grave threat to our future well being? This kind of attitude - that's what. And freedom lovers everywhere will fight it to the death, as so many of our founders did.
This kind of thinking is why Trump was elected....and will be re-elected. Coal and oil? Just the two commodities that brought us out of the dark ages and transformed lives of round-the-clock drudgery into the comfort you enjoy and take for granted today. Just the two commodities that come in right behind water as the most important and beneficial to mankind from homo habilis onward.
Plastic bags? Most of the people whose lives you would take full control of and micromanage to the grocery-shopping level have real problems to cope with.
I do agree, the poor should not be expected to elevate such things a plastic bags to the level of food & water. However, our founders laid out the theory of a federal republic which takes into account the welfare of the nation as community over self-interest (however genuine). Since the common waters cross state lines virtually everywhere, it shouldn't be a state's rights issue. A plastic bag from Maine could choke a seagull in Rhode Island or a turtle in the gulf.
In the case of the environment, it happens to be the welfare of the planet, not just America. That we should all accept drowning in cheap plastic, coal, oil or any other kind of deadly pollution for reasons of poverty anywhere is not a good argument. Issues of poverty & need should always be taken into account where possible. But not derail the effort - as seems to have happened in PVD. Time's just not on our side.
I do agree, the poor should not be expected to elevate such things a plastic bags to the level of food & water. However, our founders laid out the theory of a federal republic which takes into account the welfare of the nation as community over self-interest (however genuine). Since the common waters cross state lines virtually everywhere, it shouldn't be a state's rights issue. A plastic bag from Maine could choke a seagull in Rhode Island or a turtle in the gulf.
In the case of the environment, it happens to be the welfare of the planet, not just America. That we should all accept drowning in cheap plastic, coal, oil or any other kind of deadly pollution for reasons of poverty anywhere is not a good argument. Issues of poverty & need should always be taken into account where possible. But not derail the effort - as seems to have happened in PVD. Time's just not on our side.
Well said, and a kinder response than I would given!
People who confuse "freedom" with "freedom to pollute our planet" get no pass from me and any other informed and intelligent human being.
The Providence mayor just vetoed a city council ordinance outlawing the use of polluting plastic bags in the city. What terrible news for the state. Cheap plastic bags are clogging our oceans, landfills and roadsides. Providence was ready to join other progressive cities in banning them. The city council overwhelmingly approved the ordinance. And, the mayor vetoes it?
Calling it a delay just to educate is disingenuous. The veto by the mayor was meant as a political move to stall or kill the ordinance on behalf of those businesses with little demonstrated regard for what they do to the environment by distributing the cheap plastic bags which last centuries. This selfish resistance has shown itself almost every time such bans have been proposed throughout the country. However, in progressive places, quality leadership usually carries the day. Not in Providence. The city council summons the courage to override.
Mayor Elorza is not exactly a lock for re-election. And look at the city councilors who dropped support for the plastic bag ban, after having voted for it preliminarily: (Carmen) Castillo, (Mary-Kay) Harris, and (Sabina) Matos. That and some basic knowledge of Providence neighborhoods tells you all you need to know about the matter. Elorza's support is soft in these neighborhoods, and he knows it.
On a slightly related note, it would be interesting if some intrepid reporter would look into the data regarding recycling contamination rates by ward, and data about recycling contamination fines issued by ward (file an Access to Public Records Act request if necessary), and see how those stack up against each other. The results would be revealing about the politics involved. Call it a hunch that the fines don't follow low recycling rate/high recycling contamination wards.
Improper plastic bag disposal is incredibly damaging to the environment, from Narragansett Bay to the various plastic gyres in the Pacific Ocean. Plastic bags do tremendous harm to wildlife. Their impact is super depressing.
But even if this had passed, it's not clear that it would have been any more than a feel-good bill of little consequence, and I dare say the bag ban was fundamentally flawed anyway. If it is going to happen, it needs to happen at the state level. Maybe a city-wide ban would spark a conversation, maybe it would nudge behavior.
Right now there is a significant population in Providence that seemingly refuses to do the right thing when it comes to refuse. Why aren't the leaders talking with their constituents about this and making their case? What ever happened to drumming up support for a good cause? Why is the first reflex to reach for some sort of fine or tax? We have a leadership vacuum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mp775
I don't buy the poverty argument against banning or charging for plastic bags. Discount grocery stores like Price Rite charge for bags, yet they attract low income customers.
This is absolutely right. I occasionally shop at Price Rite. It doesn't matter when you go, whether you are foolish enough to show up at the beginning of the month or some more sane time, nobody seems to have a problem shelling out $0.10 per bag, regardless of apparent economic bracket.
Mayor Elorza is not exactly a lock for re-election. And look at the city councilors who dropped support for the plastic bag ban, after having voted for it preliminarily: (Carmen) Castillo, (Mary-Kay) Harris, and (Sabina) Matos. That and some basic knowledge of Providence neighborhoods tells you all you need to know about the matter. Elorza's support is soft in these neighborhoods, and he knows it.
On a slightly related note, it would be interesting if some intrepid reporter would look into the data regarding recycling contamination rates by ward, and data about recycling contamination fines issued by ward (file an Access to Public Records Act request if necessary), and see how those stack up against each other. The results would be revealing about the politics involved. Call it a hunch that the fines don't follow low recycling rate/high recycling contamination wards.
Improper plastic bag disposal is incredibly damaging to the environment, from Narragansett Bay to the various plastic gyres in the Pacific Ocean. Plastic bags do tremendous harm to wildlife. Their impact is super depressing.
But even if this had passed, it's not clear that it would have been any more than a feel-good bill of little consequence, and I dare say the bag ban was fundamentally flawed anyway. If it is going to happen, it needs to happen at the state level. Maybe a city-wide ban would spark a conversation, maybe it would nudge behavior.
Right now there is a significant population in Providence that seemingly refuses to do the right thing when it comes to refuse. Why aren't the leaders talking with their constituents about this and making their case? What ever happened to drumming up support for a good cause? Why is the first reflex to reach for some sort of fine or tax? We have a leadership vacuum.
This is absolutely right. I occasionally shop at Price Rite. It doesn't matter when you go, whether you are foolish enough to show up at the beginning of the month or some more sane time, nobody seems to have a problem shelling out $0.10 per bag, regardless of apparent economic bracket.
Agree with all of this, except to say a plastic bag ban in Providence would be very important to the state. While a state wide ban would be better (and may follow), the damage done by Providence plastic can't be underestimated.
Mayor Elorza is not exactly a lock for re-election. And look at the city councilors who dropped support for the plastic bag ban, after having voted for it preliminarily: (Carmen) Castillo, (Mary-Kay) Harris, and (Sabina) Matos. That and some basic knowledge of Providence neighborhoods tells you all you need to know about the matter. Elorza's support is soft in these neighborhoods, and he knows it.
On a slightly related note, it would be interesting if some intrepid reporter would look into the data regarding recycling contamination rates by ward, and data about recycling contamination fines issued by ward (file an Access to Public Records Act request if necessary), and see how those stack up against each other. The results would be revealing about the politics involved. Call it a hunch that the fines don't follow low recycling rate/high recycling contamination wards.
Improper plastic bag disposal is incredibly damaging to the environment, from Narragansett Bay to the various plastic gyres in the Pacific Ocean. Plastic bags do tremendous harm to wildlife. Their impact is super depressing.
But even if this had passed, it's not clear that it would have been any more than a feel-good bill of little consequence, and I dare say the bag ban was fundamentally flawed anyway. If it is going to happen, it needs to happen at the state level. Maybe a city-wide ban would spark a conversation, maybe it would nudge behavior.
Right now there is a significant population in Providence that seemingly refuses to do the right thing when it comes to refuse. Why aren't the leaders talking with their constituents about this and making their case? What ever happened to drumming up support for a good cause? Why is the first reflex to reach for some sort of fine or tax? We have a leadership vacuum.
This is absolutely right. I occasionally shop at Price Rite. It doesn't matter when you go, whether you are foolish enough to show up at the beginning of the month or some more sane time, nobody seems to have a problem shelling out $0.10 per bag, regardless of apparent economic bracket.
A ban is one thing, but why complicate the matter by requiring a fee that is not exactly a tax on non banned alternatives.
I bet it could had passed without that fee. It’s not the government job to tell stores how much they must charge at minimum and take away the option of comping items to customers of things they own. Can you think of a time they did that? Big grocers push for the minimum fee in order to stifle competition while profiting off bag fees.
Ugly unintended Consequences of bag ordinances are real and has been proven from time to time of course to progressive lobbyists and politicians they still live in their fantasy land believing that their idealism is never wrong.
Location: Earth, a nice neighborhood in the Milky Way
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Quote:
Originally Posted by citizensadvocate
A ban is one thing, but why complicate the matter by requiring a fee that is not exactly a tax on non banned alternatives.
I bet it could had passed without that fee. It’s not the government job to tell stores how much they must charge at minimum and take away the option of comping items to customers of things they own. Can you think of a time they did that? Big grocers push for the minimum fee in order to stifle competition while profiting off bag fees.
Ugly unintended Consequences of bag ordinances are real and has been proven from time to time of course to progressive lobbyists and politicians they still live in their fantasy land believing that their idealism is never wrong.
So, I agree with you that the fee for alternatives to single use bags is an unnecessary complication. It's one of the reasons I think the bill was flawed.
As to government doing something similar, my mind immediately goes to bottle deposits, which have been around for decades. The difference of course is that you could get a refund for the deposit. But it looks like a mandatory charge for paper bags has happened in other places. See Bisbee, Arizona, for instance, where they forced retailers to charge $.05/paper bag and where the Attorney General filed suit against the city for overstepping their authority: https://www.azag.gov/press-release/a...ates-state-law
There is a real problem with plastic bags flying all over the City of Providence (well, maybe not on the East Side?), ending up across the landscape, in the storm drains, in the bay. I have to pick them up from my yard on a regular basis. There is little environmental awareness among a sizeable population in southern New England in general. It seems like we are a decade behind the west coast.
The Mayor's administration should step forward with an appeal to the people of Providence. Let them know what's happening, why it's bad, and appeal to them to do better, urge them to be conscientious. There has been zero leadership on this issue. I don't think hitting people with fees without trying other things first is an example of good governance.
I wonder how long it will be before Attorneys General from MA, CT, and RI file suit against single use plastic bag manufacturers for producing a product that pollutes the environment.
I wonder how long it will be before Attorneys General from MA, CT, and RI file suit against single use plastic bag manufacturers for producing a product that pollutes the environment.
The plastic bags are generally only banned at business establishments. In some places, the bags are only banned at checkout. In other words, in some areas, a grocery store could have plastic bags in their produce department but not when exchanging payment.
Anyone can purchase a 1000 count box of plastic bags on Amazon for $20, and can use them however they want (even in the areas where plastic bags have been banned).
The plastic bags are generally only banned at business establishments. In some places, the bags are only banned at checkout. In other words, in some areas, a grocery store could have plastic bags in their produce department but not when exchanging payment.
Anyone can purchase a 1000 count box of plastic bags on Amazon for $20, and can use them however they want (even in the areas where plastic bags have been banned).
Luckily, it's known what to target. That much more plastic bag pollution comes from bags originating at the checkout counter than from those keeping produce fresh or bought privately on Amazon or obtained most anywhere else.
There is little environmental awareness among a sizeable population in southern New England in general. It seems like we are a decade behind the west coast.
The Mayor's administration should step forward with an appeal to the people of Providence. Let them know what's happening, why it's bad, and appeal to them to do better, urge them to be conscientious. There has been zero leadership on this issue. I don't think hitting people with fees without trying other things first is an example of good governance.
Good points. The other thing that's been neglected under Elorza is graffiti removal. Downtown looks like it's deteriorating-again. Waterplace park is showing many signs of lack of maintenance- crumbling concrete, etc. You can't just build it and forget it.
Suppose it comes down to pride, and low socioeconomic status being supported as an excuse to not care about such issues.
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or some more sane time, nobody seems to have a problem shelling out $0.10 per bag, regardless of apparent economic bracket.
