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No and you obviously didn’t view the street views, as they are mostly empty lots, like she mentioned. Hence, the places for infill comment.
Well, it was you that posted the city website showing most projects completed. The empty lots don't look so bad. I'm sure the neighborhood was excited to have them torn down. As far as the infill development, there doesn't seem to be anyone buying the properties and building their home. As said earlier, if there were jobs in the area, there would be qualified people to build those houses. They keep trying to put the cart before the horse.
The city has done plenty. The neighborhood is full of new houses. What is it you think the city should be doing?
BTW, any new housing, business, whatever in my neighborhood, and most are performed by the owners, not the municipality.
Bingo!! Nobody, except for my wife and I, paid for our house........
To be quite honest, and at the same time not offensive to anyone, but there's something about this "Inner Loop Backfilling Project" that really bothers me. The supporters of the project keep trying to sell the idea that the Loop "tore apart the neighborhoods and thank God it's going".
First of all, how does a 200 foot wide path of "below grade" concrete, that has multiple bridges over it, and going through a mostly commercial area, destroy "neighborhoods"?? Secondly, when I490 was being constructed, by tearing through some VERY nice neighborhoods on the east side of the area, such as Fairport, East Rochester, and Brighton, there was far less whimpering.......and believe me, there were some extremely nice, luxurious mansions, torn down along East Avenue, east of Winton Road. As a youngster, I remember seeing that happen.
And furthermore, as I590 (at the time, NY47 North) on the east side of the city, was "bulldozed north", out of the "Can", and heading north to Sea Breeze, several east side neighborhoods in both the city as well as East Irondequoit, were dissected by this expressway. Again, there was very little uproar by the residents. It was looked at like it was intended....progress.
I remember what Rochester was like, before any of these expressways were built, and I can't imagine the Rochester area without them.
Well, it was you that posted the city website showing most projects completed. The empty lots don't look so bad. I'm sure the neighborhood was excited to have them torn down. As far as the infill development, there doesn't seem to be anyone buying the properties and building their home. As said earlier, if there were jobs in the area, there would be qualified people to build those houses. They keep trying to put the cart before the horse.
Where did I say projects were completed? I just posted a plan for the neighborhood.
The point she made about the lots being empty, not that they aren’t that bad.
Also, there aren’t jobs Downtown or nearby? Rochester is only 35-36 square miles in land size. However, if there is development in neighborhoods close to Downtown like North Marketview Heights, you may attract people to the neighborhood. In fact, if the new homes in the neighborhood are occupied, why wouldn’t the dwellings built on those empty lots be occupied as well? What you said contradicts itself, as there are examples of new housing being occupied. So, perhaps she is looking for that type of development in the North Marketview Heights portion of the neighborhood.
In terms of the other post, I-490 doesn’t go through any of those villages like the highways went through the city neighborhoods. I think that is the differences, as a lot development in the suburbs usually came after highways were built.
Bingo!! Nobody, except for my wife and I, paid for our house........
To be quite honest, and at the same time not offensive to anyone, but there's something about this "Inner Loop Backfilling Project" that really bothers me. The supporters of the project keep trying to sell the idea that the Loop "tore apart the neighborhoods and thank God it's going".
First of all, how does a 200 foot wide path of "below grade" concrete, that has multiple bridges over it, and going through a mostly commercial area, destroy "neighborhoods"?? Secondly, when I490 was being constructed, by tearing through some VERY nice neighborhoods on the east side of the area, such as Fairport, East Rochester, and Brighton, there was far less whimpering.......and believe me, there were some extremely nice, luxurious mansions, torn down along East Avenue, east of Winton Road. As a youngster, I remember seeing that happen.
And furthermore, as I590 (at the time, NY47 North) on the east side of the city, was "bulldozed north", out of the "Can", and heading north to Sea Breeze, several east side neighborhoods in both the city as well as East Irondequoit, were dissected by this expressway. Again, there was very little uproar by the residents. It was looked at like it was intended....progress.
I remember what Rochester was like, before any of these expressways were built, and I can't imagine the Rochester area without them.
You are correct. All of a sudden, expressways are racist. That means they qualify for funding. These expressways were built with great fanfare for shuttling people to downtown to work, go to a show, shop, or whatever. I lived adjacent to I 390 when they were building it. I do remember people complaining about I 390 cutting through the Genessee Valley Park golf course, but they still built it.
The Lake Ontario State Parkway cuts through miles and miles of forest, wetlands, ponds and creeks. The serenity of the area was ruined.
You are correct. All of a sudden, expressways are racist. That means they qualify for funding. These expressways were built with great fanfare for shuttling people to downtown to work, go to a show, shop, or whatever. I lived adjacent to I 390 when they were building it. I do remember people complaining about I 390 cutting through the Genessee Valley Park golf course, but they still built it.
The Lake Ontario State Parkway cuts through miles and miles of forest, wetlands, ponds and creeks. The serenity of the area was ruined.
Who said that highways are racist? However, to deny that they weren’t a part of Urban Renewal that split and destroyed parts of vulnerable, highly to predominantly black neighborhoods, would be naive. Especially given the dynamics in terms of housing opportunity and/or flight from the new neighborhoods said people moved to later. Sadly, the initial interstate plans knew said groups of people would be displaced, when viewing more research on the topic(look up the Sagamore Conference in regards to highway construction displacement). So, socio-historical context is important.
Of course if you work in the city and can get to work from a spanking/relatively new suburban home in an efficient manner, you are going like that. Again, context is important.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-09-2023 at 06:43 PM..
Who said that highways are racist? However, to deny that they weren’t a part of Urban Renewal that split and destroyed parts of vulnerable, highly to predominantly black neighborhoods, would be naive. Especially given the dynamics in terms of housing opportunity and/or flight from the new neighborhoods said people moved to later. Sadly, the initial interstate plans knew said groups of people would be displaced, when viewing more research on the topic(look up the Sagamore Conference in regards to highway construction displacement). So, socio-historical context is important.
Of course if you work in the city and can get to work from a spanking/relatively new suburban home in an efficient manner, you are going like that. Again, context is important.
You're overlooking the effects of "expansion and contraction" within the cities that had expressways built through them. Yes, undoubtedly, these roadways sliced through many areas, but NO, that didn't mean that the roads completely cut off one area from the others. Look at Rochester, a river, which has it's origins about 45 miles south of the city, runs right down the middle of it, terminating into Lake Ontario. Rochester developed on both sides of the river, and bridges were built in order to span it.
Rochester, at one time, was a HUGE industrial based city, with a handful of employers that provided jobs for roughly 100,000 people, at one point in time, along with a number of smaller business adding to the tally. These factories had their beginnings within the heart of the city, and the employees needed easy access to these jobs. So, more roads were built. And as more employees were needed, two other things were needed.
First, were places for these new hires to live, so the city, albeit through the surrounding towns, expanded the housing capability, and more roads or public transportation was/were needed. Secondly, as businesses expanded, the central portion of the city couldn't support the expansion, so more buildings were built further out in the perimeter of the area. That, too, meant more roads. It was a simple case of natural expansion. However, the area is currently experiencing a time of contraction, with the large corporations cutting back, and an excess of commercial property is occurring. And NOW, people are bellyaching about roads "destroying neighborhoods". If there was a time for this dissent, it was 60-70 years ago.
And furthermore, look at the railroad.....IT GOES RIGHT THROUGH THE CENTER OF ROCHESTER!!! But logically, where else would it go?? And the NY State Thruway. It goes right through the center of the major cities in NY.....except Rochester. The story I heard, is that at the time the T'way was proposed, the then-Governor had a political grudge with the politicians in Rochester, so he "got even" by drawing a fairly straight line between Buffalo and Syracuse, and the T'way followed that line, even though the roadway wound up 10-12 miles south of Rochester......and that's why I490 wound up being built, to better connect Rochester with the rest of the world.
You're overlooking the effects of "expansion and contraction" within the cities that had expressways built through them. Yes, undoubtedly, these roadways sliced through many areas, but NO, that didn't mean that the roads completely cut off one area from the others. Look at Rochester, a river, which has it's origins about 45 miles south of the city, runs right down the middle of it, terminating into Lake Ontario. Rochester developed on both sides of the river, and bridges were built in order to span it.
Rochester, at one time, was a HUGE industrial based city, with a handful of employers that provided jobs for roughly 100,000 people, at one point in time, along with a number of smaller business adding to the tally. These factories had their beginnings within the heart of the city, and the employees needed easy access to these jobs. So, more roads were built. And as more employees were needed, two other things were needed.
First, were places for these new hires to live, so the city, albeit through the surrounding towns, expanded the housing capability, and more roads or public transportation was/were needed. Secondly, as businesses expanded, the central portion of the city couldn't support the expansion, so more buildings were built further out in the perimeter of the area. That, too, meant more roads. It was a simple case of natural expansion. However, the area is currently experiencing a time of contraction, with the large corporations cutting back, and an excess of commercial property is occurring. And NOW, people are bellyaching about roads "destroying neighborhoods". If there was a time for this dissent, it was 60-70 years ago.
And furthermore, look at the railroad.....IT GOES RIGHT THROUGH THE CENTER OF ROCHESTER!!! But logically, where else would it go?? And the NY State Thruway. It goes right through the center of the major cities in NY.....except Rochester. The story I heard, is that at the time the T'way was proposed, the then-Governor had a political grudge with the politicians in Rochester, so he "got even" by drawing a fairly straight line between Buffalo and Syracuse, and the T'way followed that line, even though the roadway wound up 10-12 miles south of Rochester......and that's why I490 wound up being built, to better connect Rochester with the rest of the world.
Actually, the Thruway doesn't go through Syracuse or Buffalo, and the parts of Utica and Albany it goes through are not inhabited. Syracuse has I-690 and I-481 to connect the Thruway to the city, along with I-81 cutting through the middle of the city.
To go back to the top...You said that they "sliced" through the city. Which in this case they did go through once inhabited communities and destroyed portions of them to split them.
I came across this interesting portion of an article/research blog on the subject from an independent transportation consultant: "Like the Sagamore Conference, the committee directly confronted the problems of displacement and the Interstates. Woodbury dedicated a section to research needed on the “Relocation of Displaced Families and Land Uses.” He observed that the urban highway programs were dealing with relocation in a “more or less ad hoc, catch-as-catch-can fashion” and warned that “Negroes, Puerto Ricans, and other low-income rural in-migrants” would “face many difficulties finding other accommodations because of racial and ethnic segregation practices, their low incomes, and other characteristics.”[27]
Yes, they knew. The highway industry anticipated the problems for urban transportation and for relocation that came with bringing expressways into urban areas. Of course, they did. To believe the myth is to believe that these highway leaders—hundreds of people across every state highway department and the federal government—were stupid. These men—and they were nearly all men and nearly all white—may have been many things, but stupid is not one of them."
So, even with good intentions, there was an impact. Let alone this information.
Many railroad lines were laid again before cities/communities were as inhabited. For instance, places like East Rochester and East Syracuse were built around the railroad industry and are railroad company towns. Same for Minoa and a portion of East Buffalo.
The same could be used for the original Erie Canal, which went through cities, but said cities/communities grew after the canal(and railroad yards) were built.
Many people did fight to not have the highways built through their neighborhoods as well. In fact, here is an article about a highway project planned to go through Swillburg and Brighton that got defeated decades ago: https://www.democratandchronicle.com...feat/73519192/
There were others as well. So, this is history that was always there, but was never taught or told much until recent years. Some of that could be a matter of how things have changed and the move back into cities has gained traction in recent years as well. So, this is as much an economic aspect for the city and neighborhoods that have potential for revitalization as well.
Lastly, I want everyone to keep in mind that this wasn't just a Rochester or bigger Upstate NY city thing, but occurred across the country in cities in various regions. So, this isn't just about Rochester when the subject is addressed or brought up.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 08-10-2023 at 08:15 AM..
Many people did fight to not have the highways built through their neighborhoods as well. In fact, here is an article about a highway project planned to go through Swillburg and Brighton that got defeated decades ago: https://www.democratandchronicle.com...feat/73519192/
Most of the suburban property had been leveled by the time it was stopped. It still should have been built, but either a tunnel or an improved street. Clinton ave has many businesses and could have had more. Also, it would have cut the commute to downtown considerably. BTW, they didn't cancel it until they got the approval to route I390 through Genessee Valley Park.
Not in the same neighborhood, but close by, is this example in an area getting attention. To me, this area needs attention more than Marketview Heights. And so many other neighborhoods that "need attention" too. The city can't do everything, which is just one more reason why jobs should be at the top of every city administrators "to do list", so people can do things on their own.
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