One of the many, many reasons why I left Rochster, NY... (New York: real estate, rentals)
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One of the problems I have with Rochester (and all of Upstate, NY, for that matter), is the politics of the place. Look at both the failures and the "huh?" projects of recent times, and all you have to do is pull one thread on the cardigan that is politics, there, and 12 more pop out. Connections are everything in NY these days, which is more true than now than when NY was at its zenith (mid-60's.).
I check out the Smugtown Beacon once in a blue moon to see what Aaron Wicks and Christopher J.Wilmot have to say about all things local and state, and I occasionally post on their site. Now, I'm not affiliated in any way with Wicks or Wilmot, nor do I endorse and/or agree with everything they put on the site. On occasion, though, they hit one out of the park. Wilmot BTW is one of the heirs to the Wilmorite Corporation, which his grandfather started in Rochester in the 30's, I believe. The family also owns a pilot's school or something to that effect at the Rochester airport (or did last I knew). They are rich beyond probably any of us in these forums, and certainly what I read on the site I take with a grain of salt. Wilmot is a former county legislator, and he's a democrat.
Folks, it's stuff like this that "gets me going", when it comes to Rochester. Almost everything in that town has come down to connections, and lately (last several years) there's been way to much federal and state pork shoved towards Rochester for some pretty asinine, or at the very least, poorly thought out projects. This is what happens when government gets in the way and doesn't allow free markets and free enterprise to do their thing, and it hurts a place like Rochester, NY, which over the last 20 years as a whole has had a stagnant economy, with almost zero population and jobs growth (the stats are online). The RenSquaure deal stunk from the beginning, and it turned out to be nothing more than a money grab for folks connected to Maggie Brooks and the county political machine, who are republicans in name only (RINO's), anyway. Throw in a few union locals who would have been flush with cash from RenSquare, and you guys would have had a classic Upstate, NY, public works project some flunky would put their name on and run TV commercials touting the benfits of, and how "they" were responsible for its success.
One good thing about the South: RenSquare would never have even been proposed down here, as people would have been marching in the streets against it (D's, R's, Independents, etc.) . Why normally sane, rational, educated, whatever, people support such stuff in Rochester is beyond me, but speaks volumes of the desperation (as I see it) of an electorate crying out for good news of some sort, in this case, public monies which would have been thrown at an ill-conceived public works project meant to enrich the few.
It would have spread some pork around a metro which has been hit hard, in the last few decades, and thus does not normally entertain huge public works projects like these, nor does it have large, 100% private construction projects, nor a whole lotta little or medium-sized ones. If anyone wants to argue differently, I'm all ears.
This proposal by Mark IV construction (whom I'm not affiliated with, either), is the most sane, sensical, and practical proposal to come down the pike in Rochester in some time (Besides the latest downtown projects I've seen listed here in this forum-hate to break it to folks, but, Paetec ain't gonna build at Midtown, in fact the company has not fared well over the time they've been publicly traded (I have the inside scoop, too, although I'm not sure I'd post it here). The ESL building is a move in the right direction, although I'd caution merely shifting jobs around the county ain't real progress).
Another article on the Beacon site shows how Congel/Pyramid out of Syracuse wants to build at Medley, yadda, yadda. 'Course Wilmot would be biased 'cause his family owns Wilmorite, but, at least there's some sane commentary here regarding this asinine proposal:
Here's the deal, and part of HowardRoarke's madness: Rochester and all of New York State is too damned provincial. The power brokers, politicians, special interests, etc., are all in bed with each other, which is one of the reasons why NY is on the brink of bankruptcy. Everybody with even a stitch of control/power stakes their territory like wolves, and don't you dare cross 'em. One thing I think us sane folks knows all too well is how the powerful in NY, which includes the unions, love the thousands and thousands of fiefdoms all across the state, which sap private industry and citizens. Consolidation of government is something I think all of us can agree on, and New York is Exhibit A.
The fiefdoms make it hard for anyone with a solid, privately researched proposal like this one to get anywhere with it.
Also, the lack of consolidated government, which includes school districts, makes racial integration almost impossible. Rochester is #11 on the list of most segregated cities according to the U.S. Census bureau, and that's just pure stats, not taking into account local facts, a "man on the street" view of things. Buffalo is #2. Folks, these are stats not to be proud of, and the end result is what can see at the corner of Sixth St. and Clifford, or, for that matter, Pittsford Wegmans, where they don't even like associating with west siders (You grew up WHERE???) .
Consolidation would solve Irondequoit's "built out" problem, as well as other problems the metro has re: school costs and a whole big list of savings which could be gleaned from consolidation. I mean, does Monroe Cty. REALLY need umpteen police agencies, school districts, etc.? As much as I disliked mayor Johnson (members of my family liked the guy), I agreed with the consolidation he was so attached to. My approach would have been different, but, Bill Johnson, for all his flaws and screw-ups, was right about consolidation, although he harped on the 'white flight" meme a little too much, in my opinion. Explain to the people how consolidation would affect and help THEM, the COMMUNITY, the image many have of "Smugtown, USA". Otherwise, a well-meaning guy (on that specific issue) like Johnson could come across as a "race hustler". He spent way too much time outside the metro harping on that stuff, rather than rolling up his sleeves and dealing with the soft white underbelly of Monroe County and city politics.
The whole idea of having all those fiefdoms in NY is just crazy, and hurts the place, and drives business and people away.
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Last edited by HowardRoarke; 07-28-2009 at 02:25 AM..
Reason: Left an e out of "Rochester". Force of habit, I guess.
Explain to the people how consolidation would affect and help THEM, the COMMUNITY, the image many have of "Smugtown, USA". Otherwise, a well-meaning guy (on that specific issue) like Johnson could come across as a "race hustler". He spent way too much time outside the metro harping on that stuff, rather than rolling up his sleeves and dealing with the soft white underbelly of Monroe County and city politics.-
With no intention of entering a debate, could you elaborate on the "Smugtown, USA" concept? Thanks.
See thats the thing. People are not supporting these projects. Nobody wants Rensquare and thank god its most likely not going to happen. These are pet projects for our worthless leaders, not the people. We need to clean house, if not on election day, by force.
Basically, it's his take, or "snapshot in time", of Rochester in the middle of the 20th C. There are other cities across the world which are considered "smug". Rochester got this rep 'cause the local citizenry was, for all intents and purposes, 100% employed in the 50's, and the local manufacturing base fueled an incredible amount of economic growth, right into the late 70's (The ~'81 recession started the claiming of large numbers of jobs, there.). So, they were smug 'cause times were good and only the sky seemed to be the limit.
Due to the nature of the local economy (largely skilled and specialized), the educational attainment of a lot of folks and the benefits of such (even back then), and the 2% unemployment rate, there was a palpable "smugness" to the place, according to many who lived there, as well as outsiders
Only one problem with the smugness-underlying prejudices, outright racism, "interesting" hiring habits and practices within local industry, etc., etc., etc. By the time the '64 riots hit, most of the whites around town were blissfully unaware there were any racial problems as thousands of blacks from the deep south settled in the city, in fact, a few neighborhoods were about as perfectly integrated as one can imagine. The tawny 'burbs were booming, and everybody who wanted a job could get one (or so people thought). Apparently, part of the smug attitude was, "Well, if me and mine and my family and friends all have good jobs, then everyone else does, too.", which turned out to be false. Back then, Rochester had a lot of good jobs.
Problem was most of Rochester's "better" or more high profile employers refused to hire blacks and I would assume Puerto Ricans. Kodak did not start hiring blacks until around 1970 (!), in fact, Italians weren't allowed jobs there, either, until about 1960 (!). These facts were confirmed by the black family that lived next door while I was growing up on the west side (my dad was the one who'd heard about it (he's from Buffalo, originally), and casually asked the guy next door one day about Kodak's weird hiring practices). You see, folks, this is the stuff you rarely hear about, around town.
I've heard "Smugtown" deals with some of these racial issues in the city, which is interesting considering the book was written just as thousands of blacks were streaming into the city from the South. I'll have to pick up a used copy of it off Amazon, one of these days.
Another important point I've heard the book touches on revolves around how realtors would "steer" blacks into certain neighborhoods. Many of them came from, and still come from, old Rochester money, and old Rochester money love to keep the town just the way they like it. Realtors were purposefully steering whites away from places like the 19th Ward in the early 70's, so the more wealthy citizenry (or at least middle class) who were interested in becoming slumlords, did just that and started snapping up properties all over that part of town, before they moved on to other parts of the city (Lyell/Otis, Northeast section, etc.). Also, as more folks got laid off from local manufacturing, many took part of their nest eggs (and no doubt Xerox stock) and started snapping up dozens of properties (this started in the late 70's, after Xerox had a big layoff).
The "in" thing in the 70's was to get some properties "on the side" for a little income, plus the generous tax breaks, then dump 'em when it was time to retire. Yet according to my sources, there are slumlords in Rochester who own literally hundreds of properties, and derive massive income off of them (One I've met owned like 70 in the 10th Ward, alone, which is staggering. The guy's a no-class type, too. Made millions off being a slumlord for about 28 years, before dumping all his properties (he's known, around town)). I'm not a conspiracy nut, but, one has to wonder if the realtors were in on this.
I'm not dumping on landlords here, in fact, the Rochester Housing Authority is a corrupt organization which makes it all but impossible for some folks to even break even on their rentals, due to their meddling in the rental market. I know some good landlords in the city, and a few not so good ones.
As for anybody who wants to argue these points, well, I'm all ears. I dabbled in real estate on the side, in that town, before we left for SC two years ago. I'm just now getting back into it (after swearing it off).
One of the problems I have with Rochester (and all of Upstate, NY, for that matter), is the politics of the place. Look at both the failures and the "huh?" projects of recent times, and all you have to do is pull one thread on the cardigan that is politics, there, and 12 more pop out. Connections are everything in NY these days, which is more true than now than when NY was at its zenith (mid-60's.).
I check out the Smugtown Beacon once in a blue moon to see what Aaron Wicks and Christopher J.Wilmot have to say about all things local and state, and I occasionally post on their site. Now, I'm not affiliated in any way with Wicks or Wilmot, nor do I endorse and/or agree with everything they put on the site. On occasion, though, they hit one out of the park. Wilmot BTW is one of the heirs to the Wilmorite Corporation, which his grandfather started in Rochester in the 30's, I believe. The family also owns a pilot's school or something to that effect at the Rochester airport (or did last I knew). They are rich beyond probably any of us in these forums, and certainly what I read on the site I take with a grain of salt. Wilmot is a former county legislator, and he's a democrat.
This one is a winner:
Major Local Developer Offers New Location for RenSquare on Smugtown Beacon
Folks, it's stuff like this that "gets me going", when it comes to Rochester. Almost everything in that town has come down to connections, and lately (last several years) there's been way to much federal and state pork shoved towards Rochester for some pretty asinine, or at the very least, poorly thought out projects. This is what happens when government gets in the way and doesn't allow free markets and free enterprise to do their thing, and it hurts a place like Rochester, NY, which over the last 20 years as a whole has had a stagnant economy, with almost zero population and jobs growth (the stats are online). The RenSquaure deal stunk from the beginning, and it turned out to be nothing more than a money grab for folks connected to Maggie Brooks and the county political machine, who are republicans in name only (RINO's), anyway. Throw in a few union locals who would have been flush with cash from RenSquare, and you guys would have had a classic Upstate, NY, public works project some flunky would put their name on and run TV commercials touting the benfits of, and how "they" were responsible for its success.
One good thing about the South: RenSquare would never have even been proposed down here, as people would have been marching in the streets against it (D's, R's, Independents, etc.) . Why normally sane, rational, educated, whatever, people support such stuff in Rochester is beyond me, but speaks volumes of the desperation (as I see it) of an electorate crying out for good news of some sort, in this case, public monies which would have been thrown at an ill-conceived public works project meant to enrich the few.
It would have spread some pork around a metro which has been hit hard, in the last few decades, and thus does not normally entertain huge public works projects like these, nor does it have large, 100% private construction projects, nor a whole lotta little or medium-sized ones. If anyone wants to argue differently, I'm all ears.
This proposal by Mark IV construction (whom I'm not affiliated with, either), is the most sane, sensical, and practical proposal to come down the pike in Rochester in some time (Besides the latest downtown projects I've seen listed here in this forum-hate to break it to folks, but, Paetec ain't gonna build at Midtown, in fact the company has not fared well over the time they've been publicly traded (I have the inside scoop, too, although I'm not sure I'd post it here). The ESL building is a move in the right direction, although I'd caution merely shifting jobs around the county ain't real progress).
Another article on the Beacon site shows how Congel/Pyramid out of Syracuse wants to build at Medley, yadda, yadda. 'Course Wilmot would be biased 'cause his family owns Wilmorite, but, at least there's some sane commentary here regarding this asinine proposal:
Major Local Developer Offers New Location for RenSquare on Smugtown Beacon
Here's the deal, and part of HowardRoarke's madness: Rochester and all of New York State is too damned provincial. The power brokers, politicians, special interests, etc., are all in bed with each other, which is one of the reasons why NY is on the brink of bankruptcy. Everybody with even a stitch of control/power stakes their territory like wolves, and don't you dare cross 'em. One thing I think us sane folks knows all too well is how the powerful in NY, which includes the unions, love the thousands and thousands of fiefdoms all across the state, which sap private industry and citizens. Consolidation of government is something I think all of us can agree on, and New York is Exhibit A.
The fiefdoms make it hard for anyone with a solid, privately researched proposal like this one to get anywhere with it.
Also, the lack of consolidated government, which includes school districts, makes racial integration almost impossible. Rochester is #11 on the list of most segregated cities according to the U.S. Census bureau, and that's just pure stats, not taking into account local facts, a "man on the street" view of things. Buffalo is #2. Folks, these are stats not to be proud of, and the end result is what can see at the corner of Sixth St. and Clifford, or, for that matter, Pittsford Wegmans, where they don't even like associating with west siders (You grew up WHERE???) .
Consolidation would solve Irondequoit's "built out" problem, as well as other problems the metro has re: school costs and a whole big list of savings which could be gleaned from consolidation. I mean, does Monroe Cty. REALLY need umpteen police agencies, school districts, etc.? As much as I disliked mayor Johnson (members of my family liked the guy), I agreed with the consolidation he was so attached to. My approach would have been different, but, Bill Johnson, for all his flaws and screw-ups, was right about consolidation, although he harped on the 'white flight" meme a little too much, in my opinion. Explain to the people how consolidation would affect and help THEM, the COMMUNITY, the image many have of "Smugtown, USA". Otherwise, a well-meaning guy (on that specific issue) like Johnson could come across as a "race hustler". He spent way too much time outside the metro harping on that stuff, rather than rolling up his sleeves and dealing with the soft white underbelly of Monroe County and city politics.
The whole idea of having all those fiefdoms in NY is just crazy, and hurts the place, and drives business and people away.
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Not a bad post really. The post is rather negative, but you are not wrong and I don't blame you.
I have listened to a number of talk shows on government consolidation that has gone on in other areas. Minneapolis/Indiana was one of the areas that was able to turn itself around and now has growth. There is a village close to Buffalo called Townline, the village is less than five square miles, do we really need a town of this size, with a government all its own? And Rochester with the suburbs, many parts of the suburbs look just like the city and even share the same utilities. What would be wrong with consolidating the suburbs into neighborhoods of the city? There are too many small governments and self run services.
I don't completely agree with you on RenSquare, some of the downtown projects that have gone on have had success. The convention center was controversial, but is constantly booked. I don't hear a great number of people touting their success over those. I think the real problem is the number of people trying to attack the project at the same time. You have the mayor, the city council, local owners/investors, special interest groups, the county, Albany technically, Washington (stimulus money). Its no wonder RenSq can't get off the ground, I'm surprised the government even gave the city an extension.
I could go on for hours over unions. Unions are the classic example of irony. The labor union started as a way to protect the rights, benefits and wages of the average worker. Today the average union worker is more than overpaid and has more benefits than you and I can ever dream of. They are basically paying themselves out of a job. Every industry is shedding jobs, pay and benefits across the country, even pharmaceutical companies. But the NYS unions want pay raises? Come on?! On top of that the unions are so large that they can swing the votes in their favor.
The labor unions are technically not a NYS isolated problem. The unions affect most industries and other states. It does have a hold on this states growth however. I cannot remember his name, but there is a talk show host in California who has been speaking out over their state labor unions. The unions of CA have been getting similar perks over the years and during the recession, this host has been receiving a huge amount of threats and negativity over this issue. There was also another gentleman who was running in Niagara Falls who had a large lead, but whose ideas were not inline with the unions. The union members went door to door and the gentleman ended up loosing the election. At one factory I worked at, the union leaders told the workers to vote for Kerry because he was more likely to support the union, now THAT is socialism.
I have worked in union run factories and in their own way are similar to NYS. You have to pay your way to get in, you need to know somebody and there is always one party fighting against another for a benefit that already is 100% higher than the national average.
I like NY, I really do. I like the fact that it is not hot, we have many natural waterways, you don't have to sit in traffic for 1/2 to move three exits and the endless things to do. But both my wife and I have good jobs, but neither are union and neither have the state fingers in it. When we moved back to NY, I was surprised by Rochester, and how well it is doing in comparison to the other upstate cities. Some of that is wearing off. If I could move anywhere in the country, I don't think upstate NY would not be first choice. We moved back here because of family ties, a good job and cheap cost of living. But in reality, if the family were not here, another larger city, maybe Chicago for example, would be on my list of choices. There is less taxes in that state, and the big city is there.
I don't know what it would take to shrink the state government. Maybe what California is going through. But would the state just get bailed out, would the government choose to hurt its most prized city? I don't know.
I think Monroe County and the City of Rochester should combine their police and school systems. But I doubt the segregationists in the burbs would go for it.
See thats the thing. People are not supporting these projects. Nobody wants Rensquare and thank god its most likely not going to happen. These are pet projects for our worthless leaders, not the people. We need to clean house, if not on election day, by force.
I've talking about consolidation for many things in the state too. Why do we have all of these tiny fire districts that are in such close proximity? Same with some other districts like water and schools. What about these school districts without High schools in them? I think the state needs to keep looking at this as a way to cut some costs.
Basically, it's his take, or "snapshot in time", of Rochester in the middle of the 20th C. There are other cities across the world which are considered "smug". Rochester got this rep 'cause the local citizenry was, for all intents and purposes, 100% employed in the 50's, and the local manufacturing base fueled an incredible amount of economic growth, right into the late 70's (The ~'81 recession started the claiming of large numbers of jobs, there.). So, they were smug 'cause times were good and only the sky seemed to be the limit.
Due to the nature of the local economy (largely skilled and specialized), the educational attainment of a lot of folks and the benefits of such (even back then), and the 2% unemployment rate, there was a palpable "smugness" to the place, according to many who lived there, as well as outsiders
Only one problem with the smugness-underlying prejudices, outright racism, "interesting" hiring habits and practices within local industry, etc., etc., etc. By the time the '64 riots hit, most of the whites around town were blissfully unaware there were any racial problems as thousands of blacks from the deep south settled in the city, in fact, a few neighborhoods were about as perfectly integrated as one can imagine. The tawny 'burbs were booming, and everybody who wanted a job could get one (or so people thought). Apparently, part of the smug attitude was, "Well, if me and mine and my family and friends all have good jobs, then everyone else does, too.", which turned out to be false. Back then, Rochester had a lot of good jobs.
Problem was most of Rochester's "better" or more high profile employers refused to hire blacks and I would assume Puerto Ricans. Kodak did not start hiring blacks until around 1970 (!), in fact, Italians weren't allowed jobs there, either, until about 1960 (!). These facts were confirmed by the black family that lived next door while I was growing up on the west side (my dad was the one who'd heard about it (he's from Buffalo, originally), and casually asked the guy next door one day about Kodak's weird hiring practices). You see, folks, this is the stuff you rarely hear about, around town.
I've heard "Smugtown" deals with some of these racial issues in the city, which is interesting considering the book was written just as thousands of blacks were streaming into the city from the South. I'll have to pick up a used copy of it off Amazon, one of these days.
Another important point I've heard the book touches on revolves around how realtors would "steer" blacks into certain neighborhoods. Many of them came from, and still come from, old Rochester money, and old Rochester money love to keep the town just the way they like it. Realtors were purposefully steering whites away from places like the 19th Ward in the early 70's, so the more wealthy citizenry (or at least middle class) who were interested in becoming slumlords, did just that and started snapping up properties all over that part of town, before they moved on to other parts of the city (Lyell/Otis, Northeast section, etc.). Also, as more folks got laid off from local manufacturing, many took part of their nest eggs (and no doubt Xerox stock) and started snapping up dozens of properties (this started in the late 70's, after Xerox had a big layoff).
The "in" thing in the 70's was to get some properties "on the side" for a little income, plus the generous tax breaks, then dump 'em when it was time to retire. Yet according to my sources, there are slumlords in Rochester who own literally hundreds of properties, and derive massive income off of them (One I've met owned like 70 in the 10th Ward, alone, which is staggering. The guy's a no-class type, too. Made millions off being a slumlord for about 28 years, before dumping all his properties (he's known, around town)). I'm not a conspiracy nut, but, one has to wonder if the realtors were in on this.
I'm not dumping on landlords here, in fact, the Rochester Housing Authority is a corrupt organization which makes it all but impossible for some folks to even break even on their rentals, due to their meddling in the rental market. I know some good landlords in the city, and a few not so good ones.
As for anybody who wants to argue these points, well, I'm all ears. I dabbled in real estate on the side, in that town, before we left for SC two years ago. I'm just now getting back into it (after swearing it off).
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A lot of what you are talking about in reference to Rochester happened in Syracuse too. Look up the 15th Ward as an example. Niagara Mohawk and some other companies had to be pressured by organizations to hire Blacks too. If you look up the 15th Ward, you will also see how I-81 and urban renewal pretty much destroyed that neighborhood. Sad, but true......
A lot of what you are talking about in reference to Rochester happened in Syracuse too. Look up the 15th Ward as an example. Niagara Mohawk and some other companies had to be pressured by organizations to hire Blacks too. If you look up the 15th Ward, you will also see how I-81 and urban renewal pretty much destroyed that neighborhood. Sad, but true......
I can picture that neighborhood (last time I was in that area was about 4 years ago).
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