Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Well written observations. Agree with most of what you've said. Having been to both places, I don't think the Mission east of Valencia is anything like Bushwick as you've described.
I have a hard time understanding how one from NYC could view Divisadero or Valencia as gritty and shady. Both feel perfectly safe and are filled with retail stores, coffeeshops, and restaurants filled with people. Both streets have some less desirable areas around them, sure, but I feel perfectly safe on either at any time of day or night.
It doesn't happen much anymore, but it was only a couple years ago that people were getting shot on and around divisadero (AKA the Fillmore/Western Addition...forget that "NOPA" crap) with a decent amount of regularity. I remember one such incident when a guy tried to shoot an old man in broad daylight on Divasadero and Grove, after they got in an argument and the old man swung a broom at him. The guy missed, and ended up shooting an innocent motorist who was half a block away in the head (who luckily was not seriously injured). It used to be a lot worse in the 70s through 90s too (think lots of drugs, murders, shootings, robberies, prostitution, kids throwing rocks at passing buses...stuff like that. Some of SF's/the Fillmore's most famous rappers came from Divasadero in fact). Same with Valencia too, to a lesser extent, although i'd say despite how gentrified valencia is there's definitely still a shady element. People do get robbed, assaulted, shot, etc on valencia sometimes, and its still with more regularity than most SF neighborhoods... remember that it's still the mission district, and the mission district still has plenty of ghetto problems, even if the western part has been heavily gentrified.
Thanks for the post Rascal-C, this was exactly what I was looking for. I'm pretty much a native New Yorker, since I moved there when I was still in elementary school. I left NY a little over 5 years ago to move to LA. As a New Yorker you tend to compare every city to New York, I did that with Chicago, Boston, Montreal, Toronto, and so on. The one thing that I initially liked about Los Angeles was that it was nothing like New York, so there was no way to compare it; it was a whole new experience altogether.
While in LA I lived right in the middle of Hollywood, three blocks from Hollywood/Highland off Franklin. I loved living there because it was the one place that reminded me most of NY; kind of like a little Times Square meets St. Mark's place. I had a HUGE one bedroom apartment that included utilities, parking, and all, besides being in my preferred location. To top things off, it was incredibly affordable!
Now here's why I moved... I hated the people! I found that it was torture being a New Yorker in LA. In NY the people tend to be real, and upfront; they say it like it is, but at least they're genuine. In LA people tend to be fake, and superficial; it's hard to make true friends there because people only one to get to know you so that they may get something from you. It got to the point that I just had to leave.
Now while living in LA I got to visit SF a few times, and each time I liked it more, and more; the last time I went there I completely fell in love with it. I had been thinking of moving back to NY for some time, but once I fell in love with San Francisco, I had SF on my mind. I had approached a fork in the road...
During the summer of last year I had a chance to take time off for 10 months, or so, so I decided to get the heck out of LA, and go to NY for a while. The purpose of this trip was primarily to take a break from the West Coast, and reunite with family, and friends back East. So here I am now in New York... My time here is almost up, and I have to make my decision. Prior to coming here I was thinking of going on the San Francisco route, but after being back home for a few months I'm kind of thinking I want to stay.
The thing is that I still need to go get all my belongings in CA whether I stay here, or not. The other thing would be that the industry that I've been getting into takes place mostly in California. This means that if I stay in NY I would have to go for another career, which I rather not do.
So here is where I stand, I don't mind the slight differences between both cities, but what I don't want is to have the same experiences in SF that I had in LA. For me the people, and culture of a city are just as important as the layout,and architecture. I ask myself if some of the things that I despised about LA are things which are unique to that city, or if that's the case throughout all of California. A lot to think about....
While SF and NY are pretty different, I've found the people in SF are a lot more similar to people in NY than they are to people in LA. That really isn't saying much, but I think it's worth mentioning.
Now here's why I moved... I hated the people! I found that it was torture being a New Yorker in LA. In NY the people tend to be real, and upfront; they say it like it is, but at least they're genuine. In LA people tend to be fake, and superficial; it's hard to make true friends there because people only one to get to know you so that they may get something from you. It got to the point that I just had to leave.
Just to insert a different perspective, growing up I always felt on guard around New Yorkers. I always felt they had motives and were trying to get something over on me. Of course, with experience on both coasts I know better now, but I think we can all have clouds in our perceptions.
OT, if I were to move back to SF I'd live in the Duboce Triangle for the location. It's convenient for going anywhere, even to Oakland via BART with a quick stroll.
I think SF is a very beautiful, lovely city. I was even thinking of relocating there myself! I'm a Native NewYorker, born & raised, but as much as im tired of the hustle & bustle of the nYc,
i dont know if i can adjust to life anywhere else. I mean NY has this magnetic pull that no other city can match, but the one city pple always compare it to is SF. And just like nYc, SF isn't cheap. I'm just 30 but I already know that I don't want to grow old in nYc.
"Now here's why I moved... I hated the people! I found that it was torture being a New Yorker in LA. In NY the people tend to be real, and upfront; they say it like it is, but at least they're genuine. In LA people tend to be fake, and superficial; it's hard to make true friends there because people only one to get to know you so that they may get something from you. It got to the point that I just had to leave."
I grew up in LA, had a very normal childhood and enjoyable experience living there. Nobody in my family worked in hollywood or was affiliated with that industry. You can actually live in LA and be around very down to earth people.
I think people who move to LA and hate it are focused on trying to get into the entertainment industry which unfortunately attracts tons of weirdos and wannabe's. It is also very difficult to do without "connections", which creates a vibe of desperation, not to mention fakeness, since it is still expensive to live there and the qualifications and entry to work in the business are less "defined" than other industries. These people end up making their entire impression of a city of millions and millions of people and neighborhoods off their very narrow experience of living in and trying to "break into" the entertainment industry or living in transient neighborhoods like hollywood filled with these people.
It's too bad a city with so many millions of people from all walks of life gets a bad rap from 1 small segment of the city. Sort of like saying the entire bay area is like Berkeley.
It doesn't happen much anymore, but it was only a couple years ago that people were getting shot on and around divisadero (AKA the Fillmore/Western Addition...forget that "NOPA" crap) with a decent amount of regularity. I remember one such incident when a guy tried to shoot an old man in broad daylight on Divasadero and Grove, after they got in an argument and the old man swung a broom at him. The guy missed, and ended up shooting an innocent motorist who was half a block away in the head (who luckily was not seriously injured). It used to be a lot worse in the 70s through 90s too (think lots of drugs, murders, shootings, robberies, prostitution, kids throwing rocks at passing buses...stuff like that. Some of SF's/the Fillmore's most famous rappers came from Divasadero in fact). Same with Valencia too, to a lesser extent, although i'd say despite how gentrified valencia is there's definitely still a shady element. People do get robbed, assaulted, shot, etc on valencia sometimes, and its still with more regularity than most SF neighborhoods... remember that it's still the mission district, and the mission district still has plenty of ghetto problems, even if the western part has been heavily gentrified.
True point. The only time i've ever had a gun pulled on me was on the corner of Fulton and Divisadero in 97. Luckily it was a "funny joke" & for entertainment by a bunch of thugs. I guess. I dunno.
That was a long time ago, but frankly, I still absolutely love my old' hood right around there, despite the real estate agents made up "NoPa" crap.
I'm considering a move to SF - currently on a brief stint in SoCal, but lived in NYC for many years before. I spent this past weekend exploring the various SF neighborhoods to see where I'd like to live and had some surprising revelations. I'd like to share my impressions as they relate to various neighborhoods in NYC - possibly this could help other East Coasters thinking about relocating to SF.
My constraints for moving - looking for a 1 or 2BD under $2500, in the city (I've checked out Rockridge and much of Berkeley, but they're too quiet/removed for what I'm looking for. Moving somewhere new, I'd like to live in the city and not somewhere that feels "borough").
I'm late 20s and lived Williamsburg and the East Village in NYC. Now that I'm a little older I wasn't sure what I wanted in an SF neighborhood, but I had an idea in the back of my mind that I'd really like Hayes Valley and the Dolores Park neighborhoods. I had visited SF about 5 times before but hadn't done a serious hood-scoping.
I ended up visiting Russian Hill, Cow Hollow, the Marina, Pac Heights, Lower Pac Heights, Panhandle/NOPA, Hayes Valley, Lower Haight, Upper Haight, Duboce Triangle, Castro, Noe Valley, Dolores Park area, Mission. I would have liked to see Inner Richmond/Inner Sunset but didn't have time. I've already visited North Beach/Telegraph Hill/SOMA and they aren't for me (too touristy on the first two, too industrial on the last).
One thing I couldn't get over was how QUIET everything felt, compared to something like NYC. Sure, there were plenty of people waiting in line at brunch places, etc, but nowhere near the clusterf**k that NYC is on a daily basis. The only area that felt like that was Union Square, and I made sure to stay out of there as much as I could. (It's pretty analogous to Herald Square in NYC - lots of shopping, full of tourists).
Russian Hill surprised me. I thought it was going to be all snobs and yuppies. Instead, I found that it had a very down to earth (yet definitely) affluent feel, VERY much like the Upper West Side. There were even some Jewish delis here that lived up to this New Yorker's standards. The neighborhood was a lot like UWS with less chain stores.
As you walk west on Union towards Cow Hollow, then things get a little more hoity toity. This area felt more flashy, more like Upper East Side or Madison Avenue. Lots of groups of girls brunching wearing big sunglasses and gladiator sandals (yes - in February - the weather was gorgeous!) Gorgeous houses and lots of shops and boutiques.
The Marina wasn't as offensive as I expected it to be. I had heard so much about how douchey it is - but I really didn't think it was that bad. Here you had more big chain stores, but still a lot of mom and pop shops, and of course, fabulous proximity to Crissy Field and the water. Not as young of a crowd as I thought it would be - definitely lots of families as well as 20somethings.
Headed down to Pac Heights from there. Felt quieter and not as happening as the above spots, but Fillmore still had a lot of nice shops and boutiques, and still a lot of mom and pop stores. Still upscale, maybe like the quieter parts of the West Village. Loved the proximity to J-town eats - the J-town mall is huge and has tons of amazing looking Japanese restaurants!
The thing I liked about the above neighborhoods was the fact that they felt established and lived in, with a good amount of mom and pop stores that had been there for a long time and a solid history. These neighborhoods also seemed to have a good amount of services - easy access to supermarkets, grocery stores, banks, etc.
I was honestly pretty disappointed by the neighborhoods I was hoping to love. I had heard so much about Hayes Valley and how young and hip and nice it was. Hayes is the main drag, and has blocks of clothing and furniture boutiques which are cute, along with a handful of restaurants and bars (but nothing like the selection in the above neighborhoods). Once you get off Hayes though - there isn't much there. Parts of the area felt really seedy and abandoned - it seemed like as you walked north and east towards city hall things got worse, while if you went more west the housing got somewhat nicer, but there's not a lot going on. The area of Market below the neighborhood seemed gritty and abandoned. Tons of hipsters in the neighborhood, but no supermarket in sight, not even a crappy one. It kind of felt like parts of Brooklyn five years ago when they were still coming up - Clinton Hill or Prospect Heights without the brownstones? The yuppie stores have started moving in, but this neighborhood very clearly felt like a still-recovering bad neighborhood with a yuppie bandaid put on top of it - not a neighborhood with a rich history that you could feel.
Further down on the gentrification train was the Mission and Dolores Park area. This area has very, very clear parallels to Williamsburg and Bushwick. Valencia Street feels like what Bedford Avenue has now become (or maybe Avenues B or C) and the areas on Mission and east of there feel like what Bedford Ave was 10 years ago, or what Bushwick is these days. Very large Latino population, especially in the areas east of Mission, with legions of hipsters encroaching. On the east side of the Mission - lots of Mexican food, lots of bars full of hipsters at 4pm, lots of sketchiness. Valencia Street is not so shady - full of great restaurants, oodles of bars, and lots of boutiques with great clothes, but it still feels somewhat dirty and mildly shady - again, a lot like Bedford or Avenue C. Nice to visit, and if I move there I definitely will to eat, drink and play, but with all the hipsters and gentrification I feel like I've been there done that in Williamsburg circa 2002 and don't want to go there again.
I had high hopes for the NOPA area of Divisadero, but it felt a little like Valencia lite, and like it still needed more going on. It seems like this area could be great in 10 years or so, but definitely felt to me like an area in transition. Some nice bars and restaurants, but still felt somewhat shady. Again, so QUIET, even in the middle of the day - not enough going on if you're looking for a happening area. When you get down to the panhandle of the park, things are a but more lively with lots of bikers and runners.
Upper and Lower Haight - ick on both accounts. They both feel like St Mark's Place 10-15 years ago. Druggies, teenagers, tourists and head shops. No thanks. Lower Haight is somewhat better but still has that run-down, druggie feel on Haight. A couple good restaurants and bars (Toronado, the sausage place) but you couldn't pay me to live here. Surrounding residential areas seem really quiet, though some of the houses look nice.
Cole Valley - underneath the Upper Haight. Great proximity to parks, quiet, lots of families and a few cafes and restaurants, but felt pretty suburban and quiet with not a lot going on. Upscale but not snobby. Has train access.
Duboce Triangle - below the Lower Haight, and surprisingly super cute. Noe Street north of Market is adorable, with lots of trees, people walking dogs, etc. Feels a lot like West Village. I wish the area was more cohesive and felt like more of a neighborhood, though. The main drag around here seems to be Market, which has some great restaurants and services (Safeway is sort of close, and I saw a sign that they may be building a Trader Joes). Close walking proximity to the Castro and Church Street and the Haight. Next to the train which is awesome. Feels sort of like areas of the West Village off of 7th Avenue/Christopher.
Noe Valley - really nice, upscale, older than what I am looking for. Had the same down to earth yet wealthy feel of Russian Hill, with a little bit of Berkeley hippie thrown in. 24th street was more happening than I expected, but the neighborhood overall felt mildly sleepy and removed from the rest of the city. There is train service, though. Feels a lot like Park Slope if 7th was smaller and had less going on. Gorgeous homes and a Whole Foods.
So those are my impressions - hopefully they'll be helpful to some of you out there. I came into this thinking I wanted to live in Hayes Valley or Dolores Park and came out now looking at Russian Hill, Lower Pac Heights and Duboce area (how unfortunate for my wallet!) So if you're thinking of moving, read the forums, but keep an open mind and come see it for yourself before you move.
Thanks!
Excellent post! It's full of substance and depth. Thanks for your perspective. Looking forward toy what you decide and how it works out. Keep us posted.
Hi. I am a Native San Franciscan who has lived in NYC and still has many close relatives that live all over Tri- State. My dad was a Native New Yorker who transplanted to S.F.(please, it's not San Fran) in the 60's. My dad did well here his last forty years of his life because he did not constantly compare S.F. to NYC. Many NYers I meet on West coast have trouble adjusting because of the "center of the universe" attitude that permeates almost every conversation with Native NYer. It's ok to wait maybe an hour before you announce to a crowd or a single person that you are from NY. This is some practical advice to you if you are considering moving to San Francisco. Don't try to make S.F. A little NYC. It is it's own city and likes it that way. Good luck.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Looking forward toy what you decide and how it works out. Keep us posted.
