Questions about MUNI and getting around SF (Oakland, Stockton: insurance, neighborhoods)

[rascal-c]

So I'm thinking about moving to SF, but the public transportation system has me worried. I'd like to be able to get rid of my car and get around the city solely on foot and via public transport. However, every time I've visited, I've found that MUNI, both the buses and the trains, are unreliable and SLOW as hell. The "minutes until the next one comes" sign on the bus stations and the N-Judah were not correct, as I ended up waiting 10+ minutes more than promised many times. And standing around in Noe Valley for 25+ minutes on the weekend waiting for the inbound J-Church to show up.. oy vey. Or waiting around at Powell for an outbound train of any flavor, only to wait 20+ minutes and have the resulting train be only one car long and packed like sardines. I read SFist and it seems like every other day there is a post about MUNI delays, accidents, or problems. Is this how it always is and just an accepted part of life there?

The neighborhoods I'm looking to live in are either Lower Pac Heights or Russian Hill. There aren't any trains covering these neighborhoods. Since these are rather well-heeled neighborhoods, I have to ask - do people living there usually take the bus? Or do they have cars? You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I just haven't quite figured out how the locals get around in SF.

It seems like a lot of people bike, but I'm not much of a biker. So do I just have to resign myself to the fact that getting anywhere from my desired neighborhoods is going to take 30+ minutes on a crowded, slow, packed to the gills bus? Do locals ever use cable cars as an actual mode of transport? When I took those in SF they seemed to be full of foreign tourists.

For the record, I have lived car-free before in both Boston and NYC and loved it, but both those cities have subway systems that cover more area, have less problems, and run more frequently than the MUNI trains. I currently live in SoCal, living the drive-everywhere lifestyle, and kind of hate it.

Helpful and honest feedback appreciated. And let me just say it up front, flamers - I like SF. I am thinking about moving there. I just have a genuine question about life there. So please keep your "this isn't the East Coast, so shut up and move back there" comments to yourself. Thanks!

[mayorhaggar]

Muni is lamer than it needs to be but at least it's there. I lived in SF for 6 years without a car and got by fine. I moved from Chicago where the transit is a lot more reliable, especially buses, but the problem with Chicago is that it's so massive that it takes forever to walk anywhere, and traveling across town on a bus or train would take a long time. I think in SF it's important to live in an area where you can walk to a lot of things, like restaurants and at least a good drug store like Walgreen's where you can get a good variety of stuff without riding a bus or needing a car, and hopefully with a good grocery store in the area. That way you don't have to feel dependent on Muni except to get to work etc. SF is a lot denser and more walkable than Chicago and I would guess it's the same compared with the outer areas of NYC or the Boston area, so take advantage of that. I had a bike when I first moved to SF but I gave it up because SF's streets always have a lot of traffic and it's hilly and it's always windy, I really prefer biking in Oakland and Berkeley.

Some Muni bus lines are really reliable and frequent like the 38 and 14 and 49/47, but a lot of bus lines are terribad. The Metro is ok between Castro and Embarcadero because there's several lines running on the same tunnel, but if you're in the outer areas, it sucks badly because they don't run enough. Then during rush hour they all join up in the tunnel and cause a slow-moving traffic jam because, well, Muni sucks. Also you might want to consider living somewhere with a BART station, like the Mission or Glen Park. BART is a LOT more reliable and faster than any Muni bus or train. You don't get the constant morning rush hour breakdowns that Muni Metro has.

[mdwstrnkid]

Originally Posted by rascal-c

The neighborhoods I'm looking to live in are either Lower Pac Heights or Russian Hill. There aren't any trains covering these neighborhoods. Since these are rather well-heeled neighborhoods, I have to ask - do people living there usually take the bus? Or do they have cars? You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I just haven't quite figured out how the locals get around in SF.

Lower Pac Heights is primarily served by the Muni 2 and 3 lines. My wife usually takes the 2 to the Montgomery BART station but if the wait is too long, she'll walk over to pick up the 3. You can also take the 38 or the 1, but those routes run along the fringes of the neighborhood so you might have to walk further to catch them. We do have a car, which I use to commute to work. I will often drop off my wife at BART on my way to work, but she doesn't usually have any issues catching the bus either.

[capoeira]

Originally Posted by rascal-c

And standing around in Noe Valley for 25+ minutes on the weekend waiting for the inbound J-Church to show up.. oy vey. Or waiting around at Powell for an outbound train of any flavor, only to wait 20+ minutes and have the resulting train be only one car long and packed like sardines.

You are lucky they even came. I have heard of and experienced 1 hour+ waits when the system breaks down. There was just an article in Friday's newspaper about the horrible condition of the Muni tracks and tunnels.

Corroding Muni tunnels

Originally Posted by rascal-c

Since these are rather well-heeled neighborhoods, I have to ask - do people living there usually take the bus? Or do they have cars? You'll have to excuse my ignorance, but I just haven't quite figured out how the locals get around in SF.

Buses are just for commuting to downtown during work hours. Locals get around SF by driving just like most California cities. The key is knowing where to park which means knowing exactly where all the parking garages are. Also it helps to know exactly the street restrictions on parking so you can take advantage of them. For example the north side of 18th St. is no parking 4-6 pm Mon-Fri. So if I want to go somewhere in the Mission I will time my arrival at just before 6pm so I can get a parking space before the street parking fills up again.

Originally Posted by rascal-c

I currently live in SoCal, living the drive-everywhere lifestyle, and kind of hate it.

There are many walkable neighborhoods in SoCal. I would rather be carless in a very well selected Southern California neighborhood than in SF. With SF you have to deal with walking up huge hills(not fun with groceries),the constant wind,the panhandlers and pitiful Muni. At least in Orange County the buses are clean,actually run on a published schedule and are not super crowded.

Some examples of walkable neighborhoods in Southern CA:

1st and newport tustin ca

17th and orange costa mesa ca

30th and balboa newport beach ca

harbor and wilshire fullerton ca

4th and long beach blvd long beach ca

[rascal-c]

I know most of those SoCal neighborhoods and I really wouldn't identify any of them as 'walkable'. I guess it depends on your definition. Sure, the areas right around those streets are 'walkable', but none of those neighborhoods are places where you would want to live without a car, as you'd for sure have people you'd want to see and things you'd want to do that are outside the radius of where transit goes, or where transit goes efficiently. In my mind, those are places that you drive to, and then you get out and walk around. Are there a lot of places you can go in SoCal via public transit? Sure. But will it take 2.5 hours many of the times when it would take 30 minutes in a car? Most definitely.

The above is my conundrum with SF. In a city like NYC, or even Boston, public transport is often much, MUCH preferable to driving because the driving and parking in those cities sucks so hard, driving-wise and expense-wise (parking, insurance, etc). However, the public transport in both those cities is fast and efficient - in many cases (certainly not all, but many), it would take you about the same time, if not less time, to take public transport than to drive and find a parking spot.

Having read through these forums and having spent a good amount of time in SF over the past year, it seems like it's a tossup in SF. It seems like it would suck to keep a car in that city, but it also seems that MUNI might suck too much, and be too frustrating, to justify giving up a car altogether. Which is why I'm curious about how people who live in the city, especially in Pac Heights and Russian Hill, actually get around on a day to day basis.

[capoeira]

Originally Posted by rascal-c

none of those neighborhoods are places where you would want to live without a car, as you'd for sure have people you'd want to see and things you'd want to do that are outside the radius of where transit goes, or where transit goes efficiently.

Same as SF. Try going to Mill Valley,Half Moon Bay,San Mateo etc. without a car,especially on the weekends and see how many hours it takes. Even going to the outlying areas of SF like Sloat Blvd. or Excelsior will take a really long time without a car. The difference is SF has Bart so you can go to Oakland or Berkeley without a car.

[skyway31]

I live in SF without a car.
IMO, there are some key factors to consider as far as where to live with no car.
1) If the largest chunk of your commute on Muni is via the tunnel between Embarcadero and West Portal stations, I'd say it's very convenient with no car. Yes, there was one day where a train derailed and shut down the whole system all day. In that case, they had buses running. Or you could also take a fairly cheap cab ride. But, by and large, this subway is pretty reliable and pleasant. Especially if you can go against the flow of traffic and go outbound in mornings and inbound in afternoons
2) If you like living in North Beach/Telegraph Hill area like I do, it's super easy getting around with no car. I frequently walk to the FiDi from my place. But even if I take a bus it's pretty quick (although crowded).

However, if you work downtown and want to live in the Richmond or outer Sunset, I've got to think you'd be pretty miserable being relegated to Muni. I've taken a few trips on the 38-cited here as one of the better ones-and I thought it was quite the difficult ride within the context of doing twice a day every day.

Basically, you want to avoid riding the buses IMO. They are typically crowded, SLOW and full of a bunch of people with long, sad faces. LOL. I do frequently take one of the buses that runs down Stockton to Union Square (30, 8X, 45) and I can only do it because it's a fairly short ride from Stockton/Columbus and Market St. The only other times I bother with buses are if I'm hitting the bars on Polk or in the Marina. And in those cases I've usually always knocked back a few special beverages beforehand. LOL

As for Russian Hill, it is noteworthy that it's just not that far distance-wise from FiDi. Even if you're stuck taking buses, it won't be too long a ride.

[jade408]

Muni + Carshare/Zipcar can be a perfect compromise. I know lots of car-free people (and license-free) people who get around just fine.

[CiNYC]

^Bingo. A lot of people who live in the outer neighborhoods own cars and drive everywhere (muni can be sporadic and cabs are rare), but if you're looking to move to a central neighborhood, you'll find that:

a. There are a ton of residents
b. There are a ton of visitors driving/parking
c. There is very limited parking everywhere
d. DPT is quick with the pen & ticket.

I wouldn't have moved here if it was necessary to have a car. Sure, Muni can be a pain, but between them, BART, walking, biking, Zipcar, and cabs, I don't feel my options are limited. Saving a hell of a lot of money and stress too.

[rascal-c]

thanks for the responses so far. CiNYC (or anyone else to whom this applies): it looks like you've lived in New York. How does the transport compare - do you often find yourself getting frustrated, or is it really not that bad? NYC transit can be frustrating at times too, obviously.