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This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I guarantee if you saw a place you liked at a price that was below market value, the paperwork could say 0 sq ft and you'd snap it up.
I'd never do something so stupid as to buy something where I didn't know one of the most important details about what I was buying. Your rational is akin to someone saying, "Hey if you liked the car, and it only had 250 horse power instead of 350, as long as it gets you from point A to point B who cares? As long as you bought the car below market value!" No it doesn't work like that, because part of why the car was priced that high in the first place was based partially on the assumption of it having 350 horses under the hood! If it has less than what is advertised, then it's a big freaking problem.
Price per sqft is a very important metric when determining the value of a property across tracts, neighborhoods, and entire cities. For instance the median price of homes can be "going up in price", but per square foot, the price of homes can actually still be dropping which would indicate market weakness, where "median price" would fail to indicate that. Obviously you are not a real estate investor to assume no one cares about that metric.
It's important to MANY buyers to know the sqft of the home they are buying (not just to Arabs like that agent suggested). Just because YOU personally don't care about sqft, doesn't mean others don't. In general, people like to get what they PAY for. Just because you don't, is completely irrelevant to the discussion. This thread is proof of that.
Last edited by DocGoldstein; 08-18-2012 at 11:42 PM..
Many times an appraiser will allow only 1/2 value for an added room like a sun room. The main thing is the house appraised for value. (assuming there was an appraisal)
Nowhere in the average contract is square foot a factor in purchasing a house. It's all about the appraisal.
Also, we (in most states) use a recognized source like tax records, appraisals or builder plans for the footage. If there are variations or discrepancies on the footage measurements the agent is not liable. These are accepted legitimate sources for footage.
I'd never do something so stupid as to buy something where I didn't know one of the most important details about what I was buying. Your rational is akin to someone saying, "Hey if you liked the car, and it only had 250 horse power instead of 350, as long as it gets you from point A to point B who cares? As long as you bought the car below market value!" No it doesn't work like that, because part of why the car was priced that high in the first place was the assumption of it having 350 horses. If it has less than what is advertised, then it's a big freaking problem.
Yeah, but if that happened, I'd like to think I took the car for a test drive before I bought it, did some burnouts, punched the gas at a light from 0-60 and tested the dropdown at 40 if an auto. I have an idea what I should be feeling when I do it. At that point if I can smoke the tires and pinned back in my seat when I hit it, does a number on a paper matter?
Point being I'd educate myself before the purchase, and not take a paper as gospel.
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Price per sqft is a very important metric when determining the value of a property across tracts, neighborhoods, and entire cities. For instance the median price of homes can be "going up in price", but per square foot, the price of homes can actually still be dropping which would indicate market weakness, where "median price" would fail to indicate that. Obviously you are not a real estate investor to assume no one cares about that metric.
Actually, I am a real estate investor and landlord. I like to think I'm pretty saavy and pick through the mountain of listings and find ones that are listed with incorrect data, some information that has been left blank any any other number of anomalies that keep it from being easily filtered. Anyone can search for property and make comparisons, I look for something that slipped through the cracks and has some appeal that most might miss looking to make outsized gains. But, what the hell do I know? You're the self-proclaimed real estate guru.
When's the last time you've been in the business? When is the last time median values were worth anything? I'll give you a hint, it was before the backlog of foreclosures that skewed the numbers.
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It's important to MANY buyers to know the sqft of the home they are buying (not just to Arabs like that agent suggested). Just because YOU personally don't care about sqft, doesn't mean others don't. In general, people like to get what they PAY for. Just because you don't, is completely irrelevant to the discussion. This thread is proof of that.
It's a starting point, learn what the in's and out's are of property evaluation and what that includes it and educate yourself on purchases this large.
For someone as experienced and educated in the business as yourself, you should recognize quickly when the numbers are misleading or not and move on with your life. Especially if it's something like a house in an area with neighboring houses that have similar floor plans, but one has a metric or two that deviates from the rest.
At that point if I can smoke the tires and pinned back in my seat when I hit it, does a number on a paper matter?
C'mon man. My son has a 350z with around 270 horses. It can pin me back in my seat when I hit the gas, and smoke tires with the best of them. In 2009 I bought a Corvette Z06. It also can pin me back in my seat when I hit the gas.
Are you telling me the that the price difference is inconsequential?
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Actually, I am a real estate investor and landlord. I like to think I'm pretty saavy and pick through the mountain of listings and find ones that are listed with incorrect data, some information that has been left blank any any other number of anomalies that keep it from being easily filtered. Anyone can search for property and make comparisons, I look for something that slipped through the cracks and has some appeal that most might miss looking to make outsized gains. But, what the hell do I know? You're the self-proclaimed real estate guru.
So then you know damn well that price per sqft is an important metric. Why are you trying to dismiss it?
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Once again, it's livable usable space that isn't figured in property tax calculations.
It's also 340sqft of space that he can't legally attribute to the size of the house when he goes to eventually sell it, which hits him where most people feel it, right in the pocket.
C'mon man. My son has a 350z with around 270 horses. It can pin me back in my seat when I hit the gas, and smoke tires with the best of them. In 2009 I bought a Corvette Z06. It also can pin me back in my seat when I hit the gas.
Are you telling me the that the price difference is inconsequential?
You also know what to expect when you bought the cars and what performance to expect.
If your 350z could beat the Vette in the 1/4 mile, you'd know something was up.
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So then you know damn well that price per sqft is an important metric. Why are you trying to dismiss it?
Depends. How much did you pay for it? And while it can be, it's only one of a multitude of variables that make a good buy or not. My last property I purchased had a blank listed for the sq footage on the MLS. It's been a printing press ever since I bought it. I knew what I was looking for, and the numbers were just formalities.
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It's also 340sqft of space that he can't legally attribute to the size of the house when he goes to eventually sell it, which hits him where most people feel it, right in the pocket.
Yeah, but if a family is at a showing likes it, and some wife thinks it would be a great place to read her books in the summer, does it really matter?
All the time he owns the property he doesn't have to pay property tax for that usable space.
Lastly, if the neighbors have the same design of house, but bought 4 years ago at a price that's 40% more than the OP, who's going to lose and gain when a future sale is made?
I'm not seeing the SCAM here. There is a house, you liked it, it is xxxx big, it's is STILL xxxx big. If it's a matter of calculating the cost per sq ft then all I can say is not all sq ft are created equally and you will never win trying to play that game. Based on this limited info, if the room has permits you didn't get scammed and persuing a lawsuit will get you nowhere.
If your 350z could beat the Vette in the 1/4 mile, you'd know something was up.
In all honesty, a difference in driver skill could let him beat me easily. The Z06 is such a much more complex machine than a 350z to drive because you have to be able to get the power to the ground. Anyway, that wasn't the point. The point is if you say something is 300 HP, and then what the buyer actually gets is 250 HP, you're going to get in trouble as a seller. There have been massive multi-million dollar lawsuits for much less in the car industry. You can't lie about what a product actually delivers, then say "Hey you should have known by sitting in the seat and pressing the gas." Legally, consumer laws are very CUSTOMER friendly. Your excuse wouldn't fly in court.
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Depends. How much did you pay for it? And while it can be, it's only one of a multitude of variables that make a good buy or not.
I often use $/sqft as a metric to determine my ceiling when I'm at the court house. If I'm dealing with an agent, it's a good negotiation number to bring up as well when comparing homes in a tract/neighborhood. For instance the last time a similar home may have sold could have been 12-18 months ago, and you don't have the luxury of comparing exact models in the same hood. So in that case, $/sqft with other models could help get a better idea of how much to offer. If I don't know the sqft, then I have less info to work with in both cases.
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Yeah, but if a family is at a showing likes it, and some wife thinks it would be a great place to read her books in the summer, does it really matter?
All the time he owns the property he doesn't have to pay property tax for that usable space.
Lastly, if the neighbors have the same design of house, but bought 4 years ago at a price that's 40% more than the OP, who's going to lose and gain when a future sale is made?
I think a lot of this is immaterial. The main point is your average buyer cares most about getting what they pay for. If I get a cash buyer, and I tell them, the house is 1,800 sqft. Then later on they find out, 200 sqft of that is illegally added on, guess who is going to get sued?
Guess who will win the lawsuit?
That's what we're discussing here, not the ability of a buyer to be able to "visual inspect" and figure out that 200 sqft is illegal, or how much someone's wife loves the house. You think that wife is going to love the house when she finds out the entire sun room is illegal and going to give them problems selling the house later on? They won't give a crap about the "tax savings", they're going to get pissed like the OP about being swindled. There is a responsibility for any seller to be truthful about what they are selling. Otherwise, you can be sued.
You might be one of those people who doesn't care about getting what they paid for in the end as long as you like what you bought. But you are in the extreme minority when it comes to that. Most people care a lot about getting what they paid for, whether they like a product or not, and consumers do not like being lied to.
Last edited by DocGoldstein; 08-19-2012 at 08:38 AM..
That's what we're discussing here, not the ability of a buyer to be able to "visual inspect" and figure out that 200 sqft is illegal, or how much someone's wife loves the house. You think that wife is going to love the house when she finds out the entire sun room is illegal and going to give them problems selling the house later on? They won't give a crap about the "tax savings", they're going to get pissed like the OP about being swindled. There is a responsibility for any seller to be truthful about what they are selling. Otherwise, you can be sued.
You might be one of those people who doesn't care about getting what they paid for in the end as long as you like what you bought. But you are in the extreme minority when it comes to that. Most people care a lot about getting what they paid for, whether they like a product or not, and consumers do not like being lied to.
Wait, what the hell are you talking about? Are you sure you know about property as much as you say?
No one ever said anything about the sun room being illegal, or built without permits. (Unless I missed something) The crux of the issue is the quirks of how space is listed.
A perfectly legal sunroom is not considered part of the ft^2 because it's not heated and intended for 3 seasons. Just like an unfinished basement is not considered part of the square footage of a living space. A bathroom isn't considered a bathroom unless it has a full bathtub, or a bedroom can't be called a bedroom unless it has a window and a closet.
It's a part of the semantic quirks of real estate, but none of these things means that any of the space is illegal, needs to be torn out, or will lead to issues down the road. He still gets 100% use and enjoyment of the house he saw and liked, and thought he would get, it's just the way things are written on a piece of paper.
If there were a lawsuit, it would be considered an immaterial discrepancy, as the owner still gets to use and enjoy 100% of the house they thought. Might get some of the commission from the realtor back (after legal fees) but it won't be a slam dunk case.
Now, if the night before closing the previous owner packed up and shipped off the sun room to another location, that's definitely a scam worthy of litigation, but, not even close to the case at hand.
Wait, what the hell are you talking about? Are you sure you know about property as much as you say?
No one ever said anything about the sun room being illegal, or built without permits. (Unless I missed something)
I'm not saying in the OP's specific example that his sun room is illegal (we don't know that for sure), my example was a generic example to express the point that people want to get what they pay for.
Here is what the OP is actually claiming:
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She promised that she had verified the permit and everything was in order and we removed all contingencies.
I think the REAL crux of the argument is this:
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once it was done she sends out an email that the sun room is not added as part of sq foot of the house.
This to me implies that the agent told the buyer that the sun room was part of the LEGAL square footage of the house (back to my point about people wanting exactly what they paid for). So he is rightfully pissed, just like any buyer would be if they are lied to about the square footage. We don't have all the details, the OP hasn't posted since yesterday. But if the agent did indeed say "the house is 1,800 sqft and the sun room is part of that", then after everything is signed and done, she then says "Actually your house is really only 1,460 sqft legally because the sun room doesn't count!" That tells me that agent was being disingenuous and lied to her client, or didn't do her legal duty as an agent to clear up any ambiguities about what the buyer was actually buying. I think he may have a case in that regard.
Last edited by DocGoldstein; 08-19-2012 at 10:37 AM..
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