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Are you sticking to the recognized bullion coins or have you branched out into sovereigns and other coins with some numismatic premiums that make them semibullion? Are you buying straight numismatic investments, coins with more than 100% numismatic premiums?
My best appreciation in the last ten years has been in the area of semibullion and US numismatic gold other than 1 and 3 dollar coins. What's your experience? What are you buying now or are you buying? I don't expect anyone to mention bargains still available.
I started this thread to discuss coins, not to debate the wisdom of buying them. That's been proven. But if you have particular options strategies or have found some other interesting vehicles, please do share.
I've picked up a few Maria Theresa Thalers; but they are reaching US silver coin levels. So is sterling silver flatware.
I don't have that much silver and gold, but what I do have, I have stuck completely to the "by weight" bullion philosophy. I don't really get it for any sort of collector's value and I'm not getting it as an investment to make money. It's strictly for a SHTF situation barter and I figure any "collector's value" will mean nothing in such a situation. But it will retain some value for barter when a piece of unbacked government paper won't.
I do buy the "rounds" (coins) rather than bars or industrial ingots, but that's just for convenience. The dealers around here sell them for the going market rate of the metal plus a small fee over "spot" so they can make a little profit. Granted, some of the silver troy ounce coins (or the tiny gold coins) are prettier to look at than others, but for me, it's simply a matter of troy ounce or half ounce or twentieth ounce or whatever.
I have nothing against collecting coins per se, it's just that personally I'm not really into that and I only look at the market value by weight of the metal. And of course I know in a "normal" world, a collector of rare coins or dedicated collector's editions or limited editions (etc) will probably be able to make more of a profit than the "metal buyer." In my case though, my purpose for having them projects to a time where not many people would be thinking about coin collecting in the numismatic sense.
To answer the question, though, I have mostly silver American Eagles, and a (very) few tiny little fractional gold American eagles. Not worth all that much at this point, but it's just for a hypothetical future.
I think that one has to be very well versed if they are going to attempt to "invest" in numismatic coins, knowing both the market and the acceptable premiums. I'd like to think, though I could be wrong, that most people under a net worth of $5 million are just looking for a hedge against inflation/collapse of the US dollar when it comes to buying precious metals and choosing between bars or coin.
As I understand it some prefer to buy pre-1935 just incase a POTUS tries another FDR style confiscation and attempts to make a "turn in your gold" law retroactive to the original.
There is well documented fraud in hiding other metals under gold (lead or tungsten), be it bars or US Gold Eagles; so, buyer beware.
Another understanding......if one holds foreign gold currency (Canadian Maple Leaf, SA Kuggerand, etc...) and goes to sell it, there is federal tax involved where at this time that is not the case with US gold dollars. At least, that is what I have been told to explain why there is a premium on American Gold Eagles vs. Canadian Maple Leaves or SA Kuggerands: the former you pay now, the later you pay later.
Last edited by lifelongMOgal; 04-02-2012 at 12:20 PM..
I started buying both gold and silver back in 2002. I never gave a thought to buying numismatic. I never gave a thought to confiscation; that was done by FDR becuase at the time the $US was backed by gold, and he wished to devalue the $US by 40% (!!!) and so had to call in all gold except jewelry, gold teeth, and numismatics. Then the price of gold went from $22.60 to $35.00, thus devaluing the $US by 40%. Of course, since August 15, 1971, the $US has had NO connection to gold. Therefore there is no need to confiscate it, and the Fed merrily devalues our currency at will, not at all concerned about its relationship to gold.
Over the years since 2002, I have moved into and out of various forms of precious metals; I used to own just 100 oz bars of silver, for example, and now I go with just Eagles and 90% "junk coins" (which are anything but junk). My gold is in the form of 1 oz Eagles and 1 oz Credit Swiss bars. I don't worry about anything regarding confiscation. If this concerns you, try purchasing some 22K Indian jewelry, which comes in long neck chains made of individual, removeable "links" which you can sell separately. Using this method, you can fly out of the US wearing $200,000+ of gold, which the authorities cannot confiscate from you! Diamonds are great for this, also.
I think that one has to be very well versed if they are going to attempt to "invest" in numismatic coins, knowing both the market and the acceptable premiums. I'd like to think, though I could be wrong, that most people under a net worth of $5 million are just looking for a hedge against inflation/collapse of the US dollar when it comes to buying precious metals and choosing between bars or coin.
Most bullion coins have risen proportionately to the price of gold. But many of the smaller coins with some numismatic premiums have risen at a greater rate.
A significant percentage of people who buy bullion love gold for more than its investment potential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
As I understand it some prefer to buy pre-1935 just incase a POTUS tries another FDR style confiscation and attempts to make a "turn in your gold" law retroactive to the original.
It's 1933. But if the government confiscated gold or prohibited its possession for any reasons but jewelry and numismatics there's no reason to believe that the date would be relevant. As an aside the Austrian 100 Corona and a few other coins were very popular with Americans prior to 1975 as they were dated 1915. They were resrikes; but that didn't matter. In the early Fifties there were coins all over the place dated after 1933. Eisenhower really only went after us in 59. Kennedy went after gold owners as well. It was Nixon who came to our rescue. He sincerely wanted to restore our right to a stable currency after he played a major role in removing the gold backing from the dollar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
There is well documented fraud in hiding other metals under gold (lead or tungsten), be it bars or US Gold Eagles; so, buyer beware.
It can happen in bars. That's why it's often necessary to pay for an assay to sell large bars. Checking the specific gravity of coins reveals the gold content. The counterfeiting of rarities has gone on for centuries. Many authors have treated the subject at length. Some counterfeits have become collectible.
Another understanding......if one holds foreign gold currency (Canadian Maple Leaf, SA Kuggerand, etc...) and goes to sell it, there is federal tax involved where at this time that is not the case with US gold dollars. At least, that is what I have been told to explain why there is a premium on American Gold Eagles vs. Canadian Maple Leaves or SA Kuggerands: the former you pay now, the later you pay later.
That's not true. American Eagles bring a higher premium because they're more popular, particularly in this country. They are also the only bullion coins that an IRA may hold.
An esteemed and respected dealer in Denver was once telling his customers that South African bullion coins were a bad idea because they'd need to go to South Africa to redeem them.
In primitive societies it's typical for a trader to examine each piece of money or favored barter item. Some reasons for refusal are aesthetic only. Primitives often act like numismatists or collectors in general.
Eisenhower really only went after us in 59. Kennedy went after gold owners as well. It was Nixon who came to our rescue. He sincerely wanted to restore our right to a stable currency after he played a major role in removing the gold backing from the dollar.
This is most puzzling to me.
Eisenhower did not do anything regarding gold. I would like some clarification on that one! Kennedy never did anything with gold, either -- on the contrary, he re-instituted the Silver Certificate via US Treasury Notes, in competition with Federal Reserve Notes. There's some speculation that this activity got him assassinated. They did away with 90% silver coinage after 1964, and I'm sure he would be opposed to that also, had he lived past 1964.
Nixon never came to anybody's rescue except the London Gold Pool, which was frantically trying to keep the price of gold at $US 35 per oz, encouraging France's Charles DeGaulle to turn in his $US for "cheap" $35 gold. That was the last straw. Nixon severed the dollar-gold tie (known as "Bretton Woods" after the post-WWII agreement in Bretton Woods NH)) on August 15, 1971. He never did a darn thing for anybody when it came to gold. Our currency was not stabilized till Paul Volcker became Fed Chairman in 1979 and raised interest rates until the dollar stabilized. It hasn't been "stable" since then.
Either you are not reading your history very well, or my eyes are worse than I thought!
Most bullion coins have risen proportionately to the price of gold. But many of the smaller coins with some numismatic premiums have risen at a greater rate.
A significant percentage of people who buy bullion love gold for more than its investment potential.
It's 1933. But if the government confiscated gold or prohibited its possession for any reasons but jewelry and numismatics there's no reason to believe that the date would be relevant. It has been relevant in the past and past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, in the opinion of many. As an aside the Austrian 100 Corona and a few other coins were very popular with Americans prior to 1975 as they were dated 1915. They were resrikes; but that didn't matter. In the early Fifties there were coins all over the place dated after 1933. Eisenhower really only went after us in 59. Kennedy went after gold owners as well. It was Nixon who came to our rescue. HUH? He sincerely wanted to restore our right to a stable currency after he played a major role in removing the gold backing from the dollar. Have to be careful not to turn this into a political discussion: Gold Standard or Nixon Standard by Gary North
It can happen in bars. That's why it's often necessary to pay for an assay to sell large bars. Checking the specific gravity of coins reveals the gold content. The counterfeiting of rarities has gone on for centuries. Many authors have treated the subject at length. Some counterfeits have become collectible.
That's not true. American Eagles bring a higher premium because they're more popular, particularly in this country. They are also the only bullion coins that an IRA may hold. Thanks for that clarification, it was a dealer who told me about the tax.
An esteemed and respected dealer in Denver was once telling his customers that South African bullion coins were a bad idea because they'd need to go to South Africa to redeem them.
In primitive societies it's typical for a trader to examine each piece of money or favored barter item. Some reasons for refusal are aesthetic only. Primitives often act like numismatists or collectors in general.
Comments above in blue. I guess I did not clearly understand the goal of the thread so I'll just stop commenting at this point and let the "pros" have at it. Seems though it should belong in the "financial forum" if this is not about self-sufficiency.
If the holding are for an emergency crisis situation, I was told you need to have your currency, whatever it may be, in such a way that it's recognizable and usable as a valuable currency. We carry gold for payment of certain fees, licenses, security appreciation, and expediting of services where the company cash, check or credit card is an inappropriate form of payment. Whatever we produce has to meet 2 special conditions that would also apply to an emerhency use.
1. The coins must be recognized for what ti is and trusted as indeed the gold value stamped on it. If we presented some odd ball, never heard of gold coin, there is a good chance they may refuse it because they don;t have the ability to test it. So we must use somethingt hat is universally recognized.
2. Exact change is is important. We are being told we are not cleared to leave because we lack some unheard of permit fee from the Bongo Beetle Bug inspector (who also is the district mayor) who can come out on short notice but its his day off and he is at his daughter wedding, but maybe a small wedding gift may entice him to leave the weding and come and stamp our paperwork, well I'm not going to hand over a 1 oz gold bar when 2 5 gram coins will do cause they ain;t going to make change!
If the purpose is emergency use, keep it small and recognizable because even a 10lb bar isn;t going to be accepted or may draw suspicion if it has the stamp of Billy Bob's Gold and Fish Tackle on it.
Eisenhower did not do anything regarding gold. I would like some clarification on that one! Kennedy never did anything with gold, either -- on the contrary, he re-instituted the Silver Certificate via US Treasury Notes, in competition with Federal Reserve Notes. There's some speculation that this activity got him assassinated. They did away with 90% silver coinage after 1964, and I'm sure he would be opposed to that also, had he lived past 1964.
Nixon never came to anybody's rescue except the London Gold Pool, which was frantically trying to keep the price of gold at $US 35 per oz, encouraging France's Charles DeGaulle to turn in his $US for "cheap" $35 gold. That was the last straw. Nixon severed the dollar-gold tie (known as "Bretton Woods" after the post-WWII agreement in Bretton Woods NH)) on August 15, 1971. He never did a darn thing for anybody when it came to gold. Our currency was not stabilized till Paul Volcker became Fed Chairman in 1979 and raised interest rates until the dollar stabilized. It hasn't been "stable" since then.
Either you are not reading your history very well, or my eyes are worse than I thought!
Eisenhower issued an executive order makng it illegal for Americans to hold gold in overseas acounts as well as instructing government officials to seize non-numismatic gold coins from dealers in this country. Kennedy followed the same policies.
Richard Nixon signed legislation removing the restrictions on gold ownership effective 1/1/75. There were several attempts in Congress to repeal this legislation afterwards and before its effective date. Nixon very clearly indicated that he wished Americans to be able to hold gold coins, bullion, & c.
I don't need to read the history; I was there. In the Fifties I was buying gold coins in the US from Switzerland and Mexico with post 1933 dates. Mexico was issuing restrikes in all denominations as well as medals based on the coinage standard. In 1959 they disappeared. The only modern gold coins allowed to be imported were proof sets from South Africa and Vatican City by special dispensation of the government. It's possible there may have been others but the only other country minting coins on a regular basis was Turkey.
If you would like more information let me suggest the following for your perusal:
If the holding are for an emergency crisis situation, I was told you need to have your currency, whatever it may be, in such a way that it's recognizable and usable as a valuable currency. We carry gold for payment of certain fees, licenses, security appreciation, and expediting of services where the company cash, check or credit card is an inappropriate form of payment. Whatever we produce has to meet 2 special conditions that would also apply to an emerhency use.
1. The coins must be recognized for what ti is and trusted as indeed the gold value stamped on it. If we presented some odd ball, never heard of gold coin, there is a good chance they may refuse it because they don;t have the ability to test it. So we must use somethingt hat is universally recognized.
2. Exact change is is important. We are being told we are not cleared to leave because we lack some unheard of permit fee from the Bongo Beetle Bug inspector (who also is the district mayor) who can come out on short notice but its his day off and he is at his daughter wedding, but maybe a small wedding gift may entice him to leave the weding and come and stamp our paperwork, well I'm not going to hand over a 1 oz gold bar when 2 5 gram coins will do cause they ain;t going to make change!
If the purpose is emergency use, keep it small and recognizable because even a 10lb bar isn;t going to be accepted or may draw suspicion if it has the stamp of Billy Bob's Gold and Fish Tackle on it.
There are recognized ingots as small as one gram and coins as small as 1/20 ounce. There are 31.1 grams to a troy ounce. There is no reason why they can't be smaller as they have been in the past. The only problem is the minting cost and economies of scale should help a great deal there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
I guess I did not clearly understand the goal of the thread so I'll just stop commenting at this point and let the "pros" have at it. Seems though it should belong in the "financial forum" if this is not about self-sufficiency.
It could, I suppose, be in the financial forum. But I believe it's a better fit here. Many of us view the real problems as financial and are looking to make a score on the demise of the US dollar.
Do keep commenting, please.
Just think of us gold bugs the way you do of Scrooge McDuck.
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I would like some clarification on that one! Kennedy never did anything with gold, either -- on the contrary, he re-instituted the Silver Certificate via US Treasury Notes, in competition with Federal Reserve Notes. There's some speculation that this activity got him assassinated. 
That was the last straw. Nixon severed the dollar-gold tie (known as "Bretton Woods" after the post-WWII agreement in Bretton Woods NH)) on August 15, 1971. He never did a darn thing for anybody when it came to gold. Our currency was not stabilized till Paul Volcker became Fed Chairman in 1979 and raised interest rates until the dollar stabilized. It hasn't been "stable" since then. 
