Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know how you feel but apparently this is how things work in the world of the tradesman and have for quite a while. Regardless if it's septic work or upholstery those businesses that sell parts/materials are expecting to make a profit on mark-up. If you attempt to cut out their mark-up (no matter how unfair) expect to get charged through the nose on labor to make up for the parts loss. I don't condone it but that's apparently usual and customary in the world of specific trades.
For example: I had a small upholstery job to be done and because it was a surprise gift for my sister-in-law I wanted to choose the fabric knowing her colors and having a time crunch I did not want to order and wait 6 weeks. I went to our local warehouse bought the perfect fabric and called a couple of folks in the upholstery business. I never got return calls from any of them except for the one established shop in town. The upholsterer agreed to rush the job (2 weeks) since we were leaving town in less than a month, having frittered time dealing with trying to get competitive bids. The price quoted was surprisingly steep, I thought for the rush element but when I looked at the quote invoice later I saw fabric listed for $20-30 (can't remember exactly how much now) so I called the shop asking about it and he said that the charge was for the mark-up that he would charge for the same fabric. OMG! I was polite and asked if that was customary and he said that it was. Now things don't work quite this way up here as much so I learned let's say a $30 lesson. He did a good job on the piece and I still believe that I paid dearly for that small job but so be it. Up here we had a similar job to do and the upholsterer charged us $20 for a shop hour to use his tools and do it ourselves. He even coached us on how to get a good finish. Saved us $400 bucks. Awesome but rare.
Unfortunately there are almost no end runs around cooperative price fixing especially in a small town unless you are willing to (as someone else suggested) import the labor or learn to do it yourself. I tend to agree with the folks pointing out that you are, with your discounted or wholesale parts and the $800 something in labor, well ahead of the first quote with superior parts (warrantied) and a substantial cost savings on the entire job. I'd bite the bullet and be nice the guy that's willing to come out to do the labor because as you have found, the others aren't willing to do the job without the whole package. Personally you couldn't pay me enough to do work on an existing septic.
FWIW, I hear ya but that's how it works these days. BTW, your wife is in the wrong place for veterinary work. I can't get out of the vet's office for less than $200, often much more if shots or meds are involved for 15-20 minutes work.
So what's the problem. You wouldn't have been able to do that if we didn't have a free market economic system.
I hope her clients don't bring in medical supplies they bought much cheaper online implying she is a crook trying to rip them off.
A "free market economic system"? Seriously? All the guys charge the same, I was able to save because I found the parts online and bought them myself. Labor quoted by two out of the three was approx. the same. The second guy never showed up to even give me a quote, apparently after hearing I have my own parts, he realized I was a "penny pinching mizer".
My wife's starting salary was $38,000 as a veterinarian out of school that spent more than $100K and eight years on her education (and giving up at least four years of income that she could have been making instead of going to school). Her salary after five years in the field doubled but even then she makes nowhere near $425/hour. More like $40/hour.
People can order their own animal medications online (Petmeds...).
A typical animal clinic has x-rays, ultrasound, they have a physical building, kennels, receptionists, technicians, a surgery room, anesthesia machine, surgery table, instruments.... That's a substantial investment and also assumes monthly rent for the space. Her job assumes dealing with life and death daily. She has to have a federal and state license and a DEA license for keeping drugs. She gets audited for these drugs and has to prove where she used every drop of each drug. She also has to carry malpractice insurance which is much more expensive than your septic guy. Finally, she may have to deal with aggressive animals, rabies etc.
The septic guy has a truck and a toolbox and probably no education past high-school. His job assumes nothing of a life or death circumstance. He deals with no regulated substances.
If you want to compare vets and septic guys, a mobile vet is more of a comparison. Their investment is a van, portable x-ray, portable ultrasound machine etc. We had an equine vet - she was mobile. A farm call was $35 and I never had a bill higher than $200. I have had top farriers charge about $200 of labor for an hour and a half of work. Most farriers charge way less than that. An electrician in this area charges $85/hour for the first hour, $65 afterwards. They will tell you that upfront. A good friend of mine who is an auto mechanic (one of the rare honest ones) gives you an invoice which says how much the part cost and how much the labor. They get most of their parts delivered by NAPA or Autozone and you can go to NAPA's or Autozone's website and check the prices yourself. He charges $85/hour for labor.
I have a feeling you will go on about it for the rest of your life.
Your inability to grasp sound logic and to dispense with your preconceived notions may be due to the fact you are so emotionally charged over this.
Yep, your feeling is right. That's 'cause I don't like being treated like an idiot. Maybe money comes easy to you but it does not come easy to me...
What "sound logic" am I failing to grasp? There is no logic in saying "you will be ripped off one way or another regardless of whether it is called parts or labor". Yes, you can accept the FACT that it may happen but there is nothing logical about it.
The fact that all that makes perfect sense to you speaks volumes about how far we have gone as a society.
Call me naive but I have NEVER ripped anyone off willingly or not. I can't look someone in the eye and dishonestly and blatantly charge them 3 times over for something they can get at the store for three times less. Just like I could not look look someone in the eye and take a check for $850 for an hour of labor, regardless of what that labor is. I don't understand how these folks sleep at night.
Sadly enough YES. Our country was built on Thievery from Crooks! Shameful what the Pilgrims did to the Native Americans.
I could type several Paragraphs on how our ancestors began scamming to modern day scammers and people call those ethic men/women thieves.
I'm more alarmed at the man in a suit swindling my retirement/Savings oppose to the guy snatching a radio out a car.
Yep, your feeling is right. That's 'cause I don't like being treated like an idiot. Maybe money comes easy to you but it does not come easy to me...
What "sound logic" am I failing to grasp? There is no logic in saying "you will be ripped off one way or another regardless of whether it is called parts or labor". Yes, you can accept the FACT that it may happen but there is nothing logical about it.
The fact that all that makes perfect sense to you speaks volumes about how far we have gone as a society.
Call me naive but I have NEVER ripped anyone off willingly or not. I can't look someone in the eye and dishonestly and blatantly charge them 3 times over for something they can get at the store for three times less. Just like I could not look look someone in the eye and take a check for $850 for an hour of labor, regardless of what that labor is. I don't understand how these folks sleep at night.
OD
Hey OD,
At the risk of getting blasted by a few here, I'll go ahead and say it - I'm 100% with you. I deal with contractors all the time and it is simply amazing the games some of them play. Estimates for a a max $500 job that come in $500 all the way up to $2000 from another couple places?? WTF! 4x??
I'm like you. I don't mind paying a fair price, but what makes these guys think they can gouge? It's like when my wife takes the car somewhere that isn't on "my list" and I wind up with a $45 oil change and $55 windsheild wipers! Thanks a lot.
The only way I've been able to combat this is by becoming tight with a few guys... Well low and behold, the prices all of a sudden become "normal" after we had a few beers at the bar! This really has very little to do with buying the parts yourself. Reputable guys have a labor charge that is static. In other words, they charge me $50/hr for labor regardless of what they're doing. Parts involved or not. One of my guys I actually give my Visa card to go to HD to get the stuff he needs. He just doesn't want to deal with upfronting the costs and I always pay him in CASH. Could he buy the part and mark it up on an invoice to me? Of course. He knows that and I know that. This can't happen without a relationaship so try to find a halfway decent guy that will work with you.
It sucks trying to do this stuff in a new community. The more you can do yourself, the better. Best of luck.
One of DH's sources of income was working as an auto mechanic in several garages. All of the garages (reputable) had 'charge books' put out by the SAE - the Society of Automotive Engineers - that is, they specified how long a job should take and how much (in a range) they could charge. So, say, replacing a thermostat in a 1900 Duseldurf was listed by the manufacturer as z, with the markup being w, with the normal length of time being x, with the labor charge per hour being y.
w+x times y = z. All estimates requested by the consumer had to be within 10% of the stated z. There was very little deviation from these, and anyone who overcharged was swiftly put out of business by the other mechanics around them. Insurance companies used these books as well for damage repair charge estimates. Naturally, there was some fluctuation due to distance, shipping, and even geographical location - but it ensured that someone wouldn't be charged $500 for a 15 minute thermostat replacement with a part cost of $15! The reason the SAE developed these manuals was because so many people were getting ripped off by auto repairmen.
I don't see why it wouldn't be practical and more honest for all repair, maintenance, and/or construction people to develop and use these sorts of basic reference materials, or for insurance companies to require them. After all, a pump is a pump is a pump, a belt is a belt is a belt.
We alienated the single construction-business owner here when we first moved here. Not only had I heard so many stories and witnessed several instances of his lackadaisical attitude toward completing jobs, but I asked him - several times! - if he was open to pouring the concrete and erecting DH's shop and garage if we ordered it from Menard's. He and his wife told us they would be too busy but "could maybe get around to it eventually"; after all, he'd just won a bid to reroof the town hall and another one to reroof the church! Not good enough - it had to be erected before that winter. So we hired some friends we'd made who worked for the county roads during the day, and every evening and weekend they were at our place busting their -er- nails, until it was done, for 6 weeks, and for less than half of what the construction guy quoted. I did buy the beer and serve lunch.
The church was reroofed last year at last, but the town hall is still waiting for their roof - three years later. Meanwhile the 'construction guy' barely speaks to us. He did try reporting the fellahs who helped us out for paving the drive with county rock - sadly for him, we had paid for that directly to the county and had even donated money to their annual Christmas Party.
I'd suggest finding some people with some experience and knowledge who might help you out next time, who don't do it for a living but who make a little money on the side doing things for each other - especially those who don't have more money than time.
I forgot to add to my previous post that if you don't have to have the work done or signed off by a certified septic technician for the county, and if it is a relatively simple job that someone familiar with plumbing might be able to correctly accomplish, then you might try advertising in the gigs section of Craigslist for someone to help you. We have done this a couple of times and had good results but it wasn't for skilled labor. We recently bought property and a home in a new community (so I know how vulnerable of a position that is) and one of the most valuable services that our real estate agent performed was providing us a recommended list of reputable local specialty contractors on our request. We have used several on the list, liked the quality of their work and have been treated fairly by each of them.
Good luck.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
