Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know, I was stating my agreement. I'd say a good 90-95% of the time, it boils down to population base. You could even say that's the case for things that wind up going to Charleston or Myrtle Beach first due to the tourists that cause the local populations to swell seasonally.
This is America in 2016, perception is reality, if it's being said, it must be true. Greenville is cool, but it's not that cool. The residents, the paper, the entire region have been doing this for years. That being said,I have no problem with it. I wish Columbia would adopt a similar strategy, nobody gets along in this area. Even with our "low profile ", we're growing fast enough for our infrastructure. Would someone please start planning a solution for the roads.
I find it interesting that this is turning into a bash Greenville thread. I'm originally from Columbia. I've lived all over this great state of ours and other places like Houston, Philly, and Savannah. As far as SC goes, Greenville is by far my favorite place I've lived. The hot factor Greenville has right now is very real. Sure, this town has a great PR machine but so does any town that makes these hot lists that Greenville seems to always find itself on. There is a reason why so many retailers and restaurants pick Greenville for the first locations in the state. It isn't because of some type of overhype. These companies do their research and would not be fooled by PR campaigns, etc. Frankly, the tone of some of these posts come across as a bit jealous. I love Greenville, Charleston, and Columbia. I'm excited all three have turned into destination cities and each have something unique to offer to residents and tourists alike.
This is not a "bashing Greenville thread". However, it is true that Greenville promotes itself way above reality. Greenville is not the fastest growing part of SC and not considered a "hot" area by any measure. Charlotte, Raleigh, Nashville, Charleston, Austin etc... .are "hot" cities. Greenville is growing at similar rates as Columbia which is not bad. But, it is far from a "hot", "high growth" area....and certainly not a hi tech hot spot. Greenville is by no means a wealthy city, it is struggling to attract millennials but succeeds at attracting retirees.
As for retail.........there are many reasons why a retailer selects a location. Population is one metric but CCF did not select Greenville because of the upstate population....which stretches 100 miles on an interstate around 3 different cities. In addition to the trade area (which is more appropriate to use over population), space in a center, traffic counts, income levels, proximity to other specific retailers, center ownership and other things also factor into site selection. For instance, using the entire population of the upstate would hurt attracting a retailer because the income levels would drop. Haywood is owned by the best shopping center developer in the country, they have a long bench to attract retailers and often package malls for tenants. For instance, if you want space at SouthPark, you may also have to take space at Haywood because Simon owns both malls. Retailers who covet SouthPark will put a store in a lower level mall to get into the best space in the Carolinas. Look at it in reverse, Greenville had Whole Foods before Charlotte. Based on the population assumption, Charlotte, with 2.5MM residents should have 10 stores before Greenville with a population of roughly 800k. So, while population counts, it is by far not the only metric used.
As for overbuilding........Greenville continues to build office space in spite of a vacancy rate in the 14-15% range downtown.....and this does not count the 30% of space still for lease at One. So, if you are only absorbing 16,000 feet per quarter, or 64,000 feet per year, why build more space if you currently have an inventory of over 500,000 sq feet (8 years worth of inventory). As I said earlier, the tax credits do encourage more development but it is not 100% needed. For hotels, why is doubling the market in 5 years a good strategy?
Retail seems to churn at a good rate in the downtown area so until that stabilizes more, I am not sure more retail space is needed.
DSMRE claimed that developer know what they are doing, if so, why did 2008 happen?
Greenville is growing but nowhere near the rhetoric that you see in the Greenville News and on these boards. Terms that have been used to describe Greenville's growth are always over the top especially when compared with Charleston, Charlotte or Raleigh. Over time, Columbia and Greenville grow at very similar rates, I imagine there will be a time when we ask if Cola is overbuilding in relation to the growth rates. For some reason, developers have a herd mentality and try to develop the same spots.
I for one am glad of this. The last thing I want is for Greenville to become a boom town. It is growing plenty fast enough to suit me. I like cities about the size of our big 3 for many reasons and I have absolutely no desire to see Greenville grow so large that the "convenience" is taken out of it. In truth, it is coming eventually, but I am fine with slow steady growth, hopefully for quite awhile. Greenville is large enough to have 95% of what most people look for or want, but doesn't quite have the overwhelming traffic, taxes, or other headaches that many larger areas have. If other cities want bragging rights on growth rate they can have it as far as this poster is concerned.
I get what you are saying. Greenville and Columbia are growing at very similar rates. Demographically, they are so much more alike than different. Neither city is growing like the high growth cities of Charleston or Charlotte. But, in Greenville, you see the number of downtown hotels rooms double in a few years, you see new office space built when the market is not overwhelmingly absorbing Project One. There is a lot of office space for sublease. In the city's best space, One, you have prime office space renting by the hour, not a good indicator of a strong office market. Apartments are being built in spite of mediocre income levels.
One difference that may explain some of the arbitrage is that DT Greenville is considered economically challenged and eligible for tax credits. Many of the city's signature projects such as One would not be feasible without the credits. However, projects like One and many others were subsidized with government tax credits. Columbia is not eligible for the credits.
A few points here:
Somewhere in one of these forums, there was a link to a recent article discussing the prospect that DT Greenville might be overbuilding in the condo/apartment market. (I really wish I could link to it, but have no idea where or even which forum this was discussed). The article looked at the number of residents in other similar sized regional metros and compared the number of residents they have living DT compared to the number Greenville has living DT. DT Greenville trailed pretty much all of them by a good margin. In other words, one would expect a metro the size of Greenville's to have a certain percentage of it's residents living in the primary city's DT, but Greenville has way less than would be considered average. In my opinion, the emergence of Greenville's DT as a desirable place over the past 20-30 years means that it now has to "catch up" a bit in the arena of downtown living options when compared to other similar sized cities. You have to remember, Greenville never really had any built in "reason" to become a city like Charleston or Columbia, nor does it have huge financial banks with tons of money. It was a collection of mill villages. It prospered some back in the 20's because of some money made from those, but after the crash it languished until Max Heller had a vision in the 70s. DT has literally just been created over the past 40 years, no wonder no one wanted to live there before recently. The new rash of living options are both high in number and expensive, but this makes ordinary sense. DT has become a place many people want to be, and there were almost no options just a couple of years ago. Naturally the first people to get a chance are going to have to pay handsomely, that's just the way "first come, first serve," and supply and demand work.Regardless, the living spaces built and being built are being snatched up and we haven't even really tapped the price point that most people can afford. The income levels you refer to don't belong to the ones renting the apartments and buying the condos. Despite what the averages show, there is a lot of money in parts of Greenville and the upstate as a whole. But for decades, all that money has been in the older historical neighborhoods nearby (such as Crescent Ave, or North Main), or in the more exclusive neighborhoods farther our (like GCCC, Thornblade, Cleveland park, Montebello, etc), or newer neighbor hoods on the burbs that are way out of my price range. What brings the averages down though are the really poor areas like many of the older run down mill villages. There a lots of those and many just outside of DT (and on the West side), but again that goes back to the history of the area. While this is generally true of most cities/metros, Greenville seems especially prone to the "have and have not" reality, and it is so close to DT itself, where these expensive living quarters are being built. But there are plenty of people who seem to be able to afford them. As long as people keep buying/renting, and there are waiting lists for more, they will continue to be built.
As for Hotels, all the reports I have seen over the past 2 years have shown that DT hotels are fairing very well, and that, so far, demand for more is still there. Will it continue, who knows. But this is another part of DT that has been underserved for quite some time. I would be surprised if there is not a bit of a reprieve from hotel building, though,once all these open up. Still, Greenville's popularity has really increased over the past 10 years and the current ones are doing well.
As for office, that has been debated many times. Greenville certainly is not a huge office magnet. But, we all know about the sell of Carolina First and problems with Certus over the past few years, and from all I have read, Greenville has been able to reabsorb fairly well. Charlotte it is not, but it doesn't need to be.
Last edited by distortedlogic; 10-28-2016 at 02:39 PM..
if Columbia is as hot as Greenville, why can't it find retailers for its Bull Street common project.
there isn't that much new CRE development in downtown Columbia that isn't related to the university.
once the Grand Bohemian hotel is built next to the falls, and the 385-85 gateway interchange project is finished, look for Greenville's growth to go to a whole new level.
This is not a "bashing Greenville thread". However, it is true that Greenville promotes itself way above reality. Greenville is not the fastest growing part of SC and not considered a "hot" area by any measure. Charlotte, Raleigh, Nashville, Charleston, Austin etc... .are "hot" cities. Greenville is growing at similar rates as Columbia which is not bad. But, it is far from a "hot", "high growth" area....and certainly not a hi tech hot spot.
I agree somewhat, but why not? Every commercial on TV promotes it's product way above reality. Every school, university, state, business, and entity that I can think of does this. Other cities and towns do as well. Heck just look at our current election and the over promotion going on there . The whole point of marketing something is to put the best spin on the best foot that can be placed in front. Greenville hardly has a monopoly on promotion or over promotion. I would venture to say one of the reasons it has gained as much notice and popularity as it has over the past 10 years is directly because of this promotion. What is the old saying, "Fake it till you make it." Think of it this way, Greenville has no innate reason to become anything. It is sandwiched between Atlanta and Charlotte, and has historically and justifiably been overshadowed by every regional peer - Columbia, Charleston, Augusta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Greensboro, W-S, and even Asheville. If Greenville was ever going to become something and move beyond it's mill village beginnings, it's leaders had to totally reinvent Her. I'd say, so far at least, it seems to be working pretty well. Not perfectly, not without problems, but pretty well.
nobody every explains how Greenville overpromotes itself. it does the same thing every other city does.
most of its social media is linking to or retweeting positive articles in 3rd party publications or websites, or passing on news about new developments in the metro.
Greenville was not overshadowed by local cities from the Civil War on, it was the 'textile capital of the world'. that doesn't sound great now but it was a big deal back then. there wasn't much going on in Charleston for many decades once the slave trade was killed. it had to start selling itself as a tourist location and get the military installations to get going again.
Last edited by ClemVegas; 10-28-2016 at 03:14 PM..
if Columbia is as hot as Greenville, why can't it find retailers for its Bull Street common project.
there isn't that much new CRE development in downtown Columbia that isn't related to the university.
once the Grand Bohemian hotel is built next to the falls, and the 385-85 gateway interchange project is finished, look for Greenville's growth to go to a whole new level.
Not sure the Grand Bohemian alone will have any impact. Charleston has had a Grand Bohemian for over a year. We have a massive amount of construction on the Penninsula but none of it is related to only one hotel. It's just a hopping hotel market in general. The Grand Bohemian is just a footnote.
The downer is apparently all 3 of the big metros are booming. What caused all that?
The last time every city was booming we ended up in a massive recession. For every place that's booming, something has to be losing otherwise we have to make up for it with immigration, migration, or birth rates. None of which seems to be actually true.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
. The whole point of marketing something is to put the best spin on the best foot that can be placed in front. Greenville hardly has a monopoly on promotion or over promotion. I would venture to say one of the reasons it has gained as much notice and popularity as it has over the past 10 years is directly because of this promotion. What is the old saying, "Fake it till you make it." Think of it this way, Greenville has no innate reason to become anything. It is sandwiched between Atlanta and Charlotte, and has historically and justifiably been overshadowed by every regional peer - Columbia, Charleston, Augusta, Chattanooga, Knoxville, Greensboro, W-S, and even Asheville. If Greenville was ever going to become something and move beyond it's mill village beginnings, it's leaders had to totally reinvent Her. I'd say, so far at least, it seems to be working pretty well. Not perfectly, not without problems, but pretty well.
