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Old 08-23-2008, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
6,830 posts, read 16,566,649 times
Reputation: 1929

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geechie North View Post
Milwaukee had its major newspaper published in German in the 1880's; there were something like 120 different periodicals published in various languages in the early 1900's in New York alone. And yes, there were politicians then (as today) who helped (and exploited) these groups, and there were business elites who used them to depress workers wages (just like today). There were also politicans who played on Americans' fears and used the immigrant as a scapegoat for every contemporary ill, just like today. And the fact is that in the early 1900's there was a far greater percentage of foreigh born in this country than today (legal and illegal) and we managed to survive as a society and were actually a better place because those immigrants came. And in the end, were still are a primarily English speaking country.

And what about that English we speak? Ever tell anyone "Gesundheit" when the sneeze, or tell them to "stoop" down to avoid hitting their head? How about describing someone living in the "boondocks", or on a "cul de sac?" Yes, American English is a very adaptable language.

I think it's people in general (native and immigrant alike) who are nice to your face and talk behind your back; it's just a species-wide behavior.
I totally agree with Geechie; the immigrants of a hundred years ago brought their languages, customs and foods with them just like the immigrants of today. The biggest difference now is that we are more mobile now and immigrants quickly move to cities and states that never had a lot of immigrants. I am probably more comfortable with immigrants in general because my grandparents, great aunts and uncles on one side of my family were all immigrants. They didn't speak English when they got here and they still were very much based in their customs, foods and language from Eastern Europe and they didn't speak English when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about. Sounds radical, doesn't it?

The children of current immigrants will learn English and assimilate; it has happened time and time again.
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:08 PM
 
9,470 posts, read 9,373,019 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamatt View Post
I totally agree with Geechie; the immigrants of a hundred years ago brought their languages, customs and foods with them just like the immigrants of today. The biggest difference now is that we are more mobile now and immigrants quickly move to cities and states that never had a lot of immigrants. I am probably more comfortable with immigrants in general because my grandparents, great aunts and uncles on one side of my family were all immigrants. They didn't speak English when they got here and they still were very much based in their customs, foods and language from Eastern Europe and they didn't speak English when they didn't want me to know what they were talking about. Sounds radical, doesn't it?

The children of current immigrants will learn English and assimilate; it has happened time and time again.
Sure they learn English, or in So. FL, Spanglish--a mix of the two languages. But you don't know what it feels like to be overwhelmed with it. Even though they CAN speak English, it doesn't mean they WILL speak English. My experience was that they spoke as much Spanish as possible and only spoke English when they had to, even though they were perfectly fluent in English and had been educated in American schools. If they are in the majority, Spanish will rule. But probably some day your city will be overrun also, and then you'll understand...
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Columbia, SC
6,830 posts, read 16,566,649 times
Reputation: 1929
^ With all due respect, Florida (and California) were colonized by the Spanish so they have always had a very large Spanish-speaking population. I have spent a lot of time in both Arizona and South Florida so I know it's a little frustrating when you can't understand some of the people, but it's like that in Europe all the time - but the Europeans learn languages other than their own for the most part.
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
11,706 posts, read 24,794,766 times
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I don't have a problem with immigrants even if they don't learn english. I'm going into my third year of spanish this year in college, so I know the language fairly well. The only problem I have is when they're illegal. They come into this country thinking they don't have to pay taxes and can get a job. It doesn't work like that. Why should the people who have waited years for proper citizenship and worked their asses off to get it get shafted by people who think they can get around it? My grandpa's brother's wife came here from Russia a few years ago and had to go through hell to get her citizenship. She knows english and how the American Government system works. If an illegal immigrant goes to the hospital and can't pay for his/her medical bills, guess who pays for it instead? That's right. Our taxdollars. Our hard earned money going to people stealing our jobs and not going through the system is wrong in every aspect.
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Old 08-25-2008, 09:24 AM
 
769 posts, read 2,232,739 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waccamatt View Post
^ With all due respect, Florida (and California) were colonized by the Spanish so they have always had a very large Spanish-speaking population. I have spent a lot of time in both Arizona and South Florida so I know it's a little frustrating when you can't understand some of the people, but it's like that in Europe all the time - but the Europeans learn languages other than their own for the most part.
Quick history lesson: they were sparsely populated by Spanish-speaking people. When America got the southwest those countries were sparsely populated, thus, it was easy for them to make English the national tongue in those regions. The Southwest part of the U.S. that was taken from Mexico had a low population. It was so low they had to get American immigrants to colonize the land. That is why Texas quickly because American less than two decades after Mexican independence from Spain. The land was so low on population that the few thousand Americans in Texas outnumbered the Mexicans. And the Americans felt they were more useful in Texas than the Americans because they were finally developing the state.

So even though the Spanish founded those places they didn't develop those places. The investment that America put into former Spanish colonies makes it more American than Hispanic.

Just because the Spanish founded the place and named the names doesn't mean they are more deserving of the place, America developed the place. Look at it this way, you give birth to a kid, name him, but the kid ends up being raised by me into his teens and ends up calling me dad, do you think you deserve the kid more than me even though I raised him and he recognizes me as his parent?

And two more things: I'm learning Spanish as well, and people are saying it is a useful language to learn, but if you ever got out of the western hemisphere you would learn it has low value in the rest of the world. Even though most Germans in Germany speak English, learning German would have more value. Heck, Arabic is more profitable.

The other thing: yes, Americans do want those jobs. If they were given to Americans the wages would increase, that's why the companies give them to Americans. The argument that Americans don't want those jobs is propaganda.
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Old 08-25-2008, 12:35 PM
 
4,465 posts, read 8,000,367 times
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It's a real tough one to argue the utility of one major language over another since you never know what's going to help. I once was able to get a flight from Dar Es Salaam to Rome only because I speak Portuguese, and the lady acting as the Alitalia agent was a creole from Mozambique.

And while it's true that the Mexicans invited the Americans into Tejas because nobody wanted to settle there, that wasn't the case in California or what later became New Mexico. They were just overwhelmed by the flood of "Manifest Destiny", as were the Brits in Oregon when the Oregon Trail commenced. In that case rather than looking at Americans as an "investment", the Hudson's Bay Co.'s Factor (and therefore de facto territorial leader) bemoaned their arrival. "I should have killed myself before letting them in", said John Mcloughlin. But hey, that's just history.

As for today's immigrants, my experience is that their schoolkids learn English as rapidly as possible. Often they only speak Spanish among themselves, and sometimes in conversations not appropriate for school. In that case the famous Latino finger wag and one word, "palavrao" ("swearword") in Portuguese is enough to get things back on the up and up. I've also read that there is an entire generation in California which no longer speaks theirparents Spanish, but only heavily accented English. Talk about being "koutokeino"! (That means "stuck in the middle" in Finnish.)
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Old 08-25-2008, 01:00 PM
 
1,028 posts, read 3,082,598 times
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I was recently visiting family in NJ, and was in a section that had a large Hispanic influence. I noticed a lot of people speaking in Spanish to each other, and I believe that it is because they are children and grandchildren of immigrants, and are used to doing it when speaking to them. It doesn't bother me when they speak to each other that way.
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Old 08-25-2008, 07:32 PM
 
239 posts, read 701,886 times
Reputation: 72
in my opinion and just my opinion but didn't the origanal immigrants come to this country steal the land slaughter every indian in sight enslaved the black man to build this country then when it became too overcrowded moved west drove out the mexicans proceeded to then steal thier land as well ..then drove the indians to so called reservations on the trail of tears to live in poverty for a hundred years.. and somehow we became the victim ...
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Old 08-26-2008, 07:29 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
11,706 posts, read 24,794,766 times
Reputation: 3449
Now this is what i'm talking about: Nearly 600 detained in Mississippi immigration raid - USATODAY.com
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:14 PM
 
Location: On a Farm & by the sea
1,144 posts, read 2,874,369 times
Reputation: 1016
I live in a small town in Upstate SC for much of the year. A local company actually went to Mexico to recruit illegals to work in a meat packaging facility because the work was so unpleasant that they could not keep enough locals staffed. Then there was an INS raid. The pictures of the children and families being taken away without a single possession they had acquired stays with me. If I were in their shoes, and I could not find enough work to feed my family, I'm sure I'd cross the border. Yes, most of our ancestors immigrated at one time or another. BUT...I still believe that illegals have to go. Period. Folks, we have LIMITED resources. It isn't just about them coming and working to feed their families. Their families need education and medical care. Illegals are a drain on our resources. We already have an aging boomer population and enormous deficit. We can not afford to care for more people who are not participating in the system. We've got to shift our thinking to running the gov't like a business. It makes no sense on any level to allow illegals to circumvent the law.
BTW, my husband is a wonderful Mexican man and the son of two LEGAL immigrants to the US. Legal immigration is a BEAUTIFUL thing.
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