Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Science and Technology > Space
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 09-11-2016, 10:25 PM
 
2,854 posts, read 2,051,955 times
Reputation: 348

Advertisements

If the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 JM (Jupiter mass) brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (1300km) ocean of 1 EM (Earth mass) of liquid hydrogen/helium. (Saturn has about 8 EM of liquid hydrogen/helium and 87 EM of something else)

The pressure at the bottom of this liquid hydrogen/helium ocean would have been
1300km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.5 million bar

Based on the abundace of the elements, 1.5% (0.9 JM) of the 60 JM protosun should have been carbon (95-13=82 EM, see below) and oxygen (190-25=165 EM) so it is possible that between the liquid hydrogen/helium ocean and the metallic hydrogen/helium there may have been a 3000km thick layer (if 8 g/cm^3) of metallic carbon and metallic oxygen
It might have been less than that if, for one reason or another, part of it (the oxygen) sank

If hydrogen only comes in two flavors, nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and degenerate metallic hydrogen, then it's very hard to see how a planet could keep the same radius as its mass increases from 1 to 60 JM. It is necessary therefore to suppose that metallic hydrogen comes in two forms, one much denser than the other. A partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and a fully degenerate metallic hydrogen.


The layers would have looked like this:

Nondegenerate liquid hydrogen and helium (0.0794 g/cm^3)
Nondegenerate metallic carbon and oxygen

Partially degenerate metallic hydrogen and helium (8 g/cm^3)
Partially degenerate metallic carbon and oxygen

Fully degenerate hydrogen (>80 g/cm^3)
Fully degenerate carbon and oxygen


When the pressure in the core of the 60 JM protosun became great enough and the fully degenerate metallic hydrogen core finally collapsed the protosun would have begun to spin faster due to conservation of angular momentum. If it spun fast enough then its outermost layers of liquid hydrogen and metallic oxygen and metallic carbon would have been thrown out into space where it would have coalesced into a moon which would have immediately begun receding from the rapidly rotating protosun due to tidal interactions.

One orbit would be completed in only 25 minutes.
2*pi*sqrt((76000 km)^3/(G*60*317 earth masses)) = 25 min

If it continued to spin faster and faster then eventually part of its metallic hydrogen (now the outermost layer) would have been thrown out into space and would have formed a second moon which would also have immediately begun receding due to tidal interactions. The metallic hydrogen must have been solid originally since it didnt end up in the 1st moon but the heat released by the core collapse evidently caused a vast flood of metallic hydrogen lava that covered the surface (cf flood basalt)

Maybe, just maybe, Saturn=1st moon and Jupiter=2nd moon (I'm just throwing it out there as a possibility)
This would explain why hot Jupiters are so common
Jupiter's orbital momentum is far larger than the suns rotational angular momentum.
The moons orbital momentum is 4 times the Earths rotational angular momentum.
Jupiter would have been 1/60th of the mass of the protosun.
The Moon is 1/80th of the mass of Earth.

outer 4000 km of the protosuns partially degenerate metallic hydrogen = 1 JM
60*10^9 km^2 * 4000 km * 8 g/cm^3 in Earth masses = 321.5 Earth masses

4000 km might be the depth at which the metallic hydrogen transitioned to a denser phase.
60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (saturn mass + Jupiter mass) / (Jupiter surface area) in bar = 600 million bar
60*2.528(9.8m/s^2) * (5.7*10^26kg + 1.9*10^27kg) / (61 * 10^9 km^2) in bar = 600 million bar

Uranus and Neptune would have been created earlier by a similar process when the pressure in the core of the 8 JM protosun reached 600 million bar and the partially degenerate metallic hydrogen core collaped creating fully degenerate metallic hydrogen. Still no explanation for the odd rotation of Uranus but a collision is far more likely near the sun than further out.

The pressure in the center of Jupiter is 150 million bar if its metallic hydrogen has a density of 8 g/cm^3
0.5*76000km * (8g/cm^3) * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) * 0.5 in bar
0.5*76000km = radius of core
By the time the protosun grew to 8 JM the core would be twice as big and the pressure in the center would be 4 times higher, 600 million bar
And its liquid hydrogen ocean would be 0.1*76550km deep (6.77 EM)
0.1 * 76550km * (0.0794g/cm^3) * 8 * 2.528(9.8m/s^2) in bar = 1.2 million bar = pressure at bottom of liquid hydrogen ocean
1.5% of the 8 JM protosun would be of metallic carbon (13 EM) and oxygen (25 EM)

As Jupiter receded, the Protosun's rotation would have temporarily slowed and gas and dust from the circumstance disc would once again have begun to accumulate on it. If the rotation increased again then a planet of rock and iron could have formed. 1 EM would form a layer 20km deep. At 150 g thats equivalent to 3000km at 1 g. Earth contains 0.25 EM of iron. 250 EM of gas would have to fall on to the protosun to bring that much iron. Since the rock and iron werent metallic that gas must somehow have been ejected from the rapidly rotating protosun.

Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system.
The planet that was not ejected would have grown until it also had 2 large moons; of which, at least one would have been ejected too.
In this way, each star system spawns 2 more star systems until the molecular cloud is destroyed by a supernova.
I always assumed that the circumstellar disk was destroyed when the sun began fusing hydrogen. But I guess it just dissipated naturally once the molecular cloud that was feeding it was destroyed by a supernova 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf

http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...65279;

Last edited by granpa; 09-11-2016 at 11:27 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 09-12-2016, 05:28 AM
 
2,854 posts, read 2,051,955 times
Reputation: 348
4 equipotentials for a very rapidly rotating planet.
The corners are just barely orbiting the center. Y axis is the axis of rotation.
This equation assumes there is a large concentration of mass in the center but should be an acceptable approximation even in the case of near uniform density
Thank you Wolfram.

https://www.wolframalpha.com
plot [ -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.5, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.55, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.6, -(x^2/2) -1/sqrt(x^2+y^2)= -1.65] for x= -1 to 1 

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 09:37 PM
 
26 posts, read 14,671 times
Reputation: 30
It's just inanimate figures.
Enjoy better view of the moon!

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2016, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,761 posts, read 7,255,837 times
Reputation: 7528
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
If the sun began as a rapidly growing and rapidly rotating 60 JM (Jupiter mass) brown dwarf then it was at that time almost entirely metallic hydrogen/helium surrounded by a thin (1300km) ocean of 1 EM (Earth mass) of liquid hydrogen/helium. (Saturn has about 8 EM of liquid hydrogen/helium and 87 EM of something else)<Snip>
You are making bold claims, which to an extent, run against the current ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2016, 07:43 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
33,221 posts, read 26,417,924 times
Reputation: 16353
Quote:
Originally Posted by granpa View Post
Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system.
The planet that was not ejected would have grown until it also had 2 large moons; of which, at least one would have been ejected too.
In this way, each star system spawns 2 more star systems until the molecular cloud is destroyed by a supernova.
I always assumed that the circumstellar disk was destroyed when the sun began fusing hydrogen. But I guess it just dissipated naturally once the molecular cloud that was feeding it was destroyed by a supernova 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_dwarf

http://www.science20.com/robert_inve...65279;
You've made this same claim before, in your thread http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...arate-gas.html.

I pointed out in post #7 of that thread that we know of at least four triple star systems.
Actually, four triple star systems have been discovered so far. Here are two of those star systems.


The one immediately below is HD 188753, and is located 149 light-years away in the constellation Cygnus.
The triple-star system, HD 188753, is located 149 light-years away in the constellation Cygnus. The primary star is like our Sun, weighing 1.06 solar masses. The other two stars form a tightly bound pair, which is separated from the primary by approximately the Sun-Saturn distance.

Triple Sunset: Planet Discovered in 3-Star System
This one is the Kelt star system in the constellation of Leo.
Known planets with three stars appearing in their sky are rare, this new discovery is just the fourth, and it has caused excitement in the space community because it is the closest one yet, allowing for a better look than has been possible with the other finds.

Read more at: Planet with triple-star system found

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KELT-4Ab
That would seem to refute your assertion that ''Had Saturn and Jupiter continued to grow into Stars then one of them would have been ejected from the system (a 3-body system is unstable) and we would now be in a binary star system.''
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Science and Technology > Space

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top