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I think Mr. Penrose needs to study a little more neuroscience to explain how a thought works. Not that I'm a professional or anything, but it's pretty common knowledge that a thought is a product of the brain.
Bearing this in mind.. as one neuron network.. to another.. ;-)
Wasn’t there a time when this was common knowledge too.. ?
Nevertheless.... does thought alone.. constitute consciousness… ?
Certainly.. it enables us to abstract our experience.. and to share it.. expressing it in symbols.
But then.. if anything.. thoughts tend to block out our conscious perceptions.. with their endless chatter.
Say.. as an experiment.. we got twins.. and separated them at birth.
One twin is exposed to many diverse experiences.. along with language and books..
The other is not.
Both brains are exactly the same..
The only variable then.. is the perceptual.. and the cultural.. input
Would it then.. be safe to say.. “that a thought is a product of the brain” ..or not.. ?
It is true the brain enables our thinking.. but without all the external stimulus.. would our thinking have evolved at all..?
Another question.. that I feel needs more clarity.. is..
Do our perceptions.. thoughts.. feelings.. memories.. and dreams.. actually exist within the four dimensional model of space-time.. ?
And can neuroscience now.. fully explain the phenomena of consciousness.. ?
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“Of course, neuroscience is not irrelevant to the study of consciousness. For one, it may be able to reveal the nature of the neural correlate of consciousness - the brain processes most directly associated with conscious experience. It may even give a detailed correspondence between specific processes in the brain and related components of experience. But until we know why these processes give rise to conscious experience at all, we will not have crossed what philosopher Joseph Levine has called the explanatory gap between physical processes and consciousness. Making that leap will demand a new kind of theory.”
“But Weinberg concedes that there is a problem with consciousness. Despite the power of physical theory, the existence of consciousness does not seem to be derivable from physical laws. He defends physics by arguing that it might eventually explain what he calls the objective correlates of consciousness (that is, the neural correlates), but of course to do this is not to explain consciousness itself. If the existence of consciousness cannot be derived from physical laws, a theory of physics is not a true theory of everything. So a final theory must contain an additional fundamental component.”
“Thus, a complete theory will have two components: physical laws, telling us about the behavior of physical systems from the infinitesimal to the cosmological, and what we might call psychophysical laws, telling us how some of those systems are associated with conscious experience. These two components will constitute a true theory of everything. “
“The ultimate goal of a theory of consciousness is a simple and elegant set of fundamental laws, analogous to the fundamental laws of physics.”
That really hasn't answered anything. The question of how did the universe begin still remains(poofing ex nihilo still counts as something out of nothing).
Even worse it raises more questions such as what made this god and if nothing did then what is there from the same logic applying to the universe itself
God is the answer. He always was, and always will be. He is outside of time. He created time itself, and time itself is within His hands. Our human minds cannot grasp the concept of God existing before time began because we were created to be apart of time until we die. Our existence however is eternal, whether we choose to accept the loving, gracioius, just, merciful, and faithful God determines where our fate lies for the rest of eternity...Heaven or Hell, it's one or the other. The ideas I present are not my own. They are from God Himself, revealed through His perfect word, the Bible.
yes that seems to be the requiring theme. Its called god of the gaps and it basically goes: "if no one knows the answer to this then godditit"
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterBJK
He always was, and always will be. He is outside of time. He created time itself, and time itself is within His hands. Our human minds cannot grasp the concept of God existing before time began because we were created to be apart of time until we die.
But thats a fallacy within itself, if there is no time then questions referring to before it lose all meaning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterBJK
Our existence however is eternal
We'd better hope not. Our minds are adapted to living a life that goes up to 100 years or so in places without extremes. we feel things as soft and hard yet we know that they are mostly empty space, putting us in an infinite setting without completely changing who we are is like grabbing a fish and launching it into space
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterBJK
whether we choose to accept the loving, gracioius, just, merciful, and faithful God
But all these feelings are human. We feel mercy and have a sense of justice because we can have empathy with the person on the other end. We can imagine what it would be for us so we try to treat others the way we would like to be treated. We also lived in a world where there was a constant struggle for survival. We developed love, unity,friendship because working together is always better than going alone.
What does this god need these feelings for? She is alone living in a plane without a notion of time. Maybe she gave us all these feelings to help us out but herself having them seems out of place and more like wishful thinking from the same people that see their god as a gigantic slim santa claus sitting in a chair above the clouds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterBJK
determines where our fate lies for the rest of eternity...Heaven or Hell, it's one or the other.
Just out of curiosity what do people do to pass the time in heaven? I'm assuming they pray almost non-stop to this god and maybe play bingo every few millenia or karaoke between each googol number of years. Maybe take short walks on roads aleph null kilometers long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterBJK
The ideas I present are not my own. They are from God Himself, revealed through His perfect word, the Bible.
You have one thing right, those are definitely not your ideas
This shall be my favourite website. Hey brother, can you see how we are all quietly sitting back waiting, expecting something to change. Soon we will reach critical mass and The Son of Man will rise again. Against The Machine.
In response to your musings of the opposites, I would add that if we take the Idea of Unity then indeed the Beginning and End are Created simultaneously.
Eternity is a moment and vice versa. I like to think that all opposites are Created and Exist simultaneously.
I imagine Mind to be Electricity. Soul to be Magnetism. Ego to be Gravity. The One is Perfect Union of Mind and Soul. Held in suspension by Ego.
yes that seems to be the requiring theme. Its called god of the gaps and it basically goes: "if no one knows the answer to this then godditit"
The fact is we are given the answer in the Bible. It's not that I don't know the answer. It is revealed from God Almighty Himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
But thats a fallacy within itself, if there is no time then questions referring to before it lose all meaning.
I never said there is no time, I said that God is outside of time, he created time. He is God Almighty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
We'd better hope not. Our minds are adapted to living a life that goes up to 100 years or so in places without extremes. we feel things as soft and hard yet we know that they are mostly empty space, putting us in an infinite setting without completely changing who we are is like grabbing a fish and launching it into space
Death is the consequence of sin. Disobedience to the Almighty God who created us is sin. You feel it, you feel it when others show you hate, and when you see hate all around you, and all kinds of evil that cause so many tears in our world. It was not the way we were suppose to be, but we chose this because the first created humans disobeyed God and put a curse of sin on the world. He offers redemption so that we can be perfect again and in fellowship with God. He offers this through his son Jesus Christ of Nazareth who lived a sinless life, died willingly for your sins and mine, and rose from the grave; conquering death and sin. For those who choose them this is what happens: I Corinthians 5:1-5 "For we know when this earthly tent we live in is taken down-when we die and leave these bodies-we will have a home in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long for the day when we will put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies. Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and have no bodies at all. We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit."
All will stand before God and be judged, for it is written "For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies" -I Corinthians 5:10
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
But all these feelings are human. We feel mercy and have a sense of justice because we can have empathy with the person on the other end. We can imagine what it would be for us so we try to treat others the way we would like to be treated. We also lived in a world where there was a constant struggle for survival. We developed love, unity,friendship because working together is always better than going alone.
Mercy comes from God, for he is Mercy. Love comes from God, for he is love. Justice comes from God, for he is just. Everything good come from God, for he is the definition of good. His son Jesus Christ displays all of these characteristics to the fullest. Though he was God himself, he put others before himself, and lived life as a servant to others because of His deep love for us, his creation. For it is written: It is the will of God the Father that all who look upon His son and believe shall live forever.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
What does this god need these feelings for? She is alone living in a plane without a notion of time. Maybe she gave us all these feelings to help us out but herself having them seems out of place and more like wishful thinking from the same people that see their god as a gigantic slim santa claus sitting in a chair above the clouds.
see my previous paragraph.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
Just out of curiosity what do people do to pass the time in heaven? I'm assuming they pray almost non-stop to this god and maybe play bingo every few millenia or karaoke between each googol number of years. Maybe take short walks on roads aleph null kilometers long.
Heaven is perfect. It is in the presence of the Holy God. If he is everything good, think for a second how amazing it would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin
You have one thing right, those are definitely not your ideas
I have 2 things right. The Bible is fact, not fiction. If I was presenting my own ideas it wouldn't count, for I am only human, and can accomplish nothing on my own. The ideas I present are from God Almighty in His perfect word of truth. It is my duty, honor, and joy to proclaim the words of God Almighty, for I am His servant.
The fact is we are given the answer in the Bible. It's not that I don't know the answer. It is revealed from God Almighty Himself. No, you believe it is revealed by the God you believe in. There is no evidence that it actually is. The Bible is a book written by man.
I never said there is no time, I said that God is outside of time, he created time. He is God Almighty. There is no evidence to support that claim. The fact that it's convenient for your argument doesn't make it true.
Death is the consequence of sin. Disobedience to the Almighty God who created us is sin. You feel it, you feel it when others show you hate, and when you see hate all around you, and all kinds of evil that cause so many tears in our world. It was not the way we were suppose to be, but we chose this because the first created humans disobeyed God and put a curse of sin on the world. He offers redemption so that we can be perfect again and in fellowship with God. He offers this through his son Jesus Christ of Nazareth who lived a sinless life, died willingly for your sins and mine, and rose from the grave; conquering death and sin. For those who choose them this is what happens: I Corinthians 5:1-5 "For we know when this earthly tent we live in is taken down-when we die and leave these bodies-we will have a home in heaven, an eternal body made for us by God himself and not by human hands. We grow weary in our present bodies, and we long for the day when we will put on our heavenly bodies like new clothing. For we will not be spirits without bodies, but we will put on new heavenly bodies. Our dying bodies make us groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and have no bodies at all. We want to slip into our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by everlasting life. God himself has prepared us for this, and as a guarantee he has given us his Holy Spirit."
All will stand before God and be judged, for it is written "For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in our bodies" -I Corinthians 5:10 There are many nonbelievers who are happy, moral people. Enough said.
Mercy comes from God, for he is Mercy. Love comes from God, for he is love. Justice comes from God, for he is just. Everything good come from God, for he is the definition of good. His son Jesus Christ displays all of these characteristics to the fullest. Though he was God himself, he put others before himself, and lived life as a servant to others because of His deep love for us, his creation. For it is written: It is the will of God the Father that all who look upon His son and believe shall live forever. This is nothing but stating your beliefs. A statement isn't evidence of itself just like the Bible isn't evidence of its stories.
Heaven is perfect. It is in the presence of the Holy God. If he is everything good, think for a second how amazing it would be. No comment. This is another example of trying to validate something just because you believe in it.
I have 2 things right. The Bible is fact, not fiction. Prove it. If you can't, your claim is once again based on using your belief as evidence. That doesn't work.
If I was presenting my own ideas it wouldn't count, for I am only human, and can accomplish nothing on my own. The ideas I present are from God Almighty in His perfect word of truth.
You need an invisible man in the sky to help you accomplish things? Really? That's weird because nonreligious people like myself accomplish things all the time WITHOUT belief. Your second sentence is unproven.
I hate to take a thread off topic, but I started this thread so...
For some reason this bugs me. Ancient sailors knew the Earth was roughly spherical in shape. They observed that when a ship sails towards the shore the first thing you see from the shore is the top of the mast, then the sails then finally the whole ship. From this they concluded that the Earth must be curved and likely a sphere. The ancients also speculated that because the moon is round, the Earth may be also. And finally, Eratosthenes calculated the size of the Earth to within %1 in 240 B.C. based on his belief that it was a sphere.
We do the ancients a disservice when we assume that they believed that the Earth was flat, and then criticize them for that belief.
I hate to take a thread off topic, but I started this thread so...
For some reason this bugs me. Ancient sailors knew the Earth was roughly spherical in shape. They observed that when a ship sails towards the shore the first thing you see from the shore is the top of the mast, then the sails then finally the whole ship. From this they concluded that the Earth must be curved and likely a sphere. The ancients also speculated that because the moon is round, the Earth may be also. And finally, Eratosthenes calculated the size of the Earth to within %1 in 240 B.C. based on his belief that it was a sphere.
We do the ancients a disservice when we assume that they believed that the Earth was flat, and then criticize them for that belief.
My friend, It seems that the origin of your arguments results in this tiny phrase, so be it then, I will prove it.
Thousands of years before Christ Jesus set foot on earth there were prophecies written about a redeemer that would come from God to earth. He would be Immanuel which means "God with us". Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the prophecies to the T.
He will be born in Bethlehem: written in Micah 5:2 ~700 years Before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus IN MATTHEW 2:1
He would be a Nazarene: written in Judges 13:5 ~1000 years before Jesus;Amos2:11 written ~750 yrs. before Jesus; Lamentations 4:7 ~500 years before Jesus. Fulfilled by Jesus in MATTHEW 2:23
He will be born of a virgin: written in Isaiah 7:14 ~700 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus MATTHEW 1:18
He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver: prophesied in Zechariah 11:12 ~500 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in MATTHEW 26:15 and Luke 22:5
He would be crucified with criminals: prophesied in Isaiah 53:12 ~700 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in Matthew 27:35
His body will be pierced in the hands and feet: Prophesied in Zechariah 12:10 ~500 years before Jesus, Psalms 22:16~1000 years before Jesus, Fulfilled by Jesus in John 20:25,27
None of his bones were broken: prophesied in Psalm 34:20 ~1000 years before Jesus, Numbers 9:12 ~1400 years before Jesus, Fulfilled by Jesus in John 19:33-36
He will have a ministry of
He will be resurrected from the dead: prophesied in Psalm 16:10-11 and 49:15 ~1000 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in Mark 16:6
My Friend, these are just a few examples, and as you can see they are very specific, impossible to be fulfilled by anyone else. There are 300 more down to the detail of what line he would be born into. So through the God inspired words of his prophets, It is proven that the Bible is true and Jesus is God Almighty, the great I AM who died for the sins of the world, that whoever believes that he is God will have eternal life. Not to mention His supernatural miracles of healing a blind man, healing a deaf person, making the crippled walk, walking on water, calming the wind and the waves, and raising a man from the dead. This is all written in the Bible of the account of witnesses. To God be the glory.
My friend, It seems that the origin of your arguments results in this tiny phrase, so be it then, I will prove it.
Thousands of years before Christ Jesus set foot on earth there were prophecies written about a redeemer that would come from God to earth. He would be Immanuel which means "God with us". Jesus Christ fulfilled all of the prophecies to the T.
He will be born in Bethlehem: written in Micah 5:2 ~700 years Before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus IN MATTHEW 2:1
He would be a Nazarene: written in Judges 13:5 ~1000 years before Jesus;Amos2:11 written ~750 yrs. before Jesus; Lamentations 4:7 ~500 years before Jesus. Fulfilled by Jesus in MATTHEW 2:23
He will be born of a virgin: written in Isaiah 7:14 ~700 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus MATTHEW 1:18
He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver: prophesied in Zechariah 11:12 ~500 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in MATTHEW 26:15 and Luke 22:5
He would be crucified with criminals: prophesied in Isaiah 53:12 ~700 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in Matthew 27:35
His body will be pierced in the hands and feet: Prophesied in Zechariah 12:10 ~500 years before Jesus, Psalms 22:16~1000 years before Jesus, Fulfilled by Jesus in John 20:25,27
None of his bones were broken: prophesied in Psalm 34:20 ~1000 years before Jesus, Numbers 9:12 ~1400 years before Jesus, Fulfilled by Jesus in John 19:33-36
He will have a ministry of
He will be resurrected from the dead: prophesied in Psalm 16:10-11 and 49:15 ~1000 years before Jesus, fulfilled by Jesus in Mark 16:6
My Friend, these are just a few examples, and as you can see they are very specific, impossible to be fulfilled by anyone else. There are 300 more down to the detail of what line he would be born into. So through the God inspired words of his prophets, It is proven that the Bible is true and Jesus is God Almighty, the great I AM who died for the sins of the world, that whoever believes that he is God will have eternal life. Not to mention His supernatural miracles of healing a blind man, healing a deaf person, making the crippled walk, walking on water, calming the wind and the waves, and raising a man from the dead. This is all written in the Bible of the account of witnesses. To God be the glory.
You forget that it is unlikely that the Bible was written before these things happened (If they did happen anyway.). Remember, the biblical stories were passed from person to person verbally for years. They weren't made into a book until years after these things supposedly took place. If that is the case, then there is no prediction because it was written after these things take place, so anything can be written about if it has already happened. That's like me saying I could write a book that talked about before and after 9/11, but if I didn't tell people when the book was written, they could easily assume that I predicted it.
And no, it is not proven that the Bible is true.
And illusionists walk on water all the time.
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