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Ill tell you what......you reread what you wrote, and then explain how you have not contradicted yourself in several areas. Most all surges come over power lines, and terminate at a given usage point; unless you can stop them before they reach that end point.
A typical surge is from cloud, to AC electric lines, into a house, into an appliance, out of that appliance by some other path to earth ground. Current never terminates in a usage point. Never. If it did, then no electricity exists. We all learned this in elementary school science. For electricity to exist, both an incoming and an outgoing path must exist. If a current terminates at a usage point, then no current and no electricity exists. Please stop claiming an electric current can exist with only an incoming path and no outgoing path. Water might work that way. Electricity does not.
Dr Standler saw no hope of *human safety codes* requiring effective surge protection. Why distort what he says? You took one sentence, distorted it out of context, and then declare yourself an expert? You did not even read on page in his book. Now you know batter? Sadly that is what so many do once manipulated by myths, fables, hearsay, and advertising.
"a surge on any wire inside an incoming cable must connect low impedance (i.e.less than 10 feet) to single point earth ground". Every wire. No exception. As explained repeatedly. Done to meet ALL human safety codes and then to exceed what codes require. But again: *Effective surge protection means meeting and exceeding all codes for human safety.* Please and finally comprehend what is between two asterisks.
If every incoming utility does not connect to a single point earth ground, then your utilities violate codes for human safety. Every incoming utility - AC electric, TV cable, telephone, satellite dish, and even TV antenna - must connect to a common earth ground at the service entrance - as required by electrical codes for human safety. Your house is not wired that way? Then your house violates human safety codes. Also makes surge damage easier.
A 'whole house' protector attached to a main breaker box (not sub panel) that makes a low impedance connection to earth - that is major and most protection. Apparently you have that. Good. But if other incoming utilities (listed in that previous paragraph) also do not connect low impedance to a same electrode, then protection is compromised. Telephone, cable, etc not connected to a common electrode even violates standards for human safety.
Normal is no 'over voltage' for seven years. In venues such as Washington, surges are even less frequent. If a surge has not been observed in years, well all appliances already have robust internal protection. This discussion has been about a rare transient (maybe one every ten+ years in your venue) that might overwhelm superior and existing protection. A homeowner might spend $1 per protected appliance to earth that one 'whole house' protector. Apparently you have done that. It is best protection for the buck.
Again, do TV cable and telco's 'installed for free' protector also make that same connection to earth as required by so many human safety codes and industry standard? And as also needed for effective surge protection?
Ok....one last time into the breech.......now your back to a typical surge is from a cloud...in one of our fun posts, you said that you were not talking about lightning, and while actual current does not terminate totally at an appliance (here we agree, wonder of wonders) as far as that appliance is concerned, as soon as you turn it on, the circuit is completed at that appliance....and yes it is elementary. And if a surge is in progress at that moment, that appliance is the unlucky one. And no I am no expert, just a minion past millwright who knows a thing of two about electricity.
"Effective surge protection means meeting and exceeding all codes for human safety"; I did that once, by installing extra grounding rods, and was told it was not allowed according to code, and I either needed to remove one of them, or alter my box...., I chose altering my box as it was easier. All according to Jim the county inspector....who said that I could have a ground fault loop problem.......I won't go over it again...., as we done beat that horse to death already. You do it the way the inspector says.....or else don't pass.
Yes, every utility does connect to a single point earth ground....it's called the neutral line , it comes into your house and you are required by code to connect to it. I am certain I did not say the opposite....., if I did....me bad....
As for Dr. Standler, I quoted him word for word as you wrote it...., and no, I am noooo expert...., but according to my utility company, our codes are designed both for human protection and equipment protection. As for exceeding codes...., that is a slippery slope, and it is one that can come back around full circle and bite you in the Gluteus Maximus.
As stated many times, my house is wired according to code and passed such with flying colors. Here is Washington, they prefer in some electrical instances that all electrical wiring be performed by a licensed pro...., but there is quite a bit of leniency built in, as a non professional can do most of the wiring work themselves, but it must be according to regulations, and must pass inspection to be legal. I was that non professional, and did the work myself, so I do know enough about electricity to pass code inspection. But I do not know it all, and that is for certain. However...there are a few things that a non licensed person is not allowed to do at point of accruing a fine.....and they'll do it tooo.
As for my TV cable, and telephone...., as far as I know, the cable is grounded outside my house with a 4 foot rod, the phone has no ground at my house, so I assume it is grounded back at the pole. Neither have any type of surge protection I know of, in fact our phone lines at the pole are all fiber optic lines.
As for your artistic earthed system...., if you want to make it a part of actual code science...., write a paper, submit it for peer review, and get the RCW and WAC electrical regulations changed. It can be done if your willing..... as for impedance issues...., if it is a part of code regulations then I must be in fairly good shape there. Good luck with your cause....
... on, the circuit is completed at that appliance....and yes it is elementary. And if a surge is in progress at that moment, that appliance is the unlucky one. And no I am no expert, just a minion past millwright who knows a thing of two about electricity.
Due to virtually no electrical knowledge, even normal and longitudinal mode currents are intentionally ignored to argue about currents terminating at an appliance. Electricity never worked that way. Lightning is an ideal example of many destructive currents that create appliance damage. All such surges are routinely averted if properly earthed before entering a building.
You admitted to separated earth ground rods - a safety code violation. Even the inspector warned you about resulting ground loops. Apparently you also argued with him rather than learn. Now you foolishly claim *safety* grounds interconnect those ground rods. More ignorance of impedance, equipotential, and safety codes. Knowledge means learning you have violated what is required for human safety (the codes) and for appliance protection.
Same ignorance assumed a water pipe is a best ground. Woefully insufficient even according to safety codes. Worse, you claim a 4 foot earth ground is a good electrode. That electrode also violates safety codes. And does nothing for surge protection. You would have learned if reading to learn. But again, you only want to argue - to obfuscate reality.
Human safety codes do not define surge protection. Standler states that obviously. His 1988 prediction remains today. Nothing in code defines protection of appliances.
Even an inspector warned about your defective earthing and resulting ground loops. Being smarter than all of us, you also argued with him - rather than learn.
Obviously a pole ground does not provide subscriber phone line earthing. Had you read code or learned about surge protection, then you knew a phone line must be earthed where it enters a building. To provide human safety AND to provide surge protection. But that means you want to learn. You do not. You only want to argue.
Codes define human safety. Surge protection is about earthing that exceeds code requirements. That means single point earth ground and low impedance (ie less than 10 foot) connections. Protection is always about how hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate harmlessly outside. As defined by impedance, equipotential, and other electrical concepts. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. That has not changed in over 100 years.
For fun...., I went back and reread all of our posts, which is helpful to keep discussions from getting out of hand. And I see places where both parties did not understand what the other was getting at. However..., I still stick to my guns concerning how my power flows. Some of my wiring is single point...., by that I mean that it is not daisy chained along the same circuit path. By that I mean, that when that single point wire is actuated and it's power is actually being used, that single appliance is the switching and grounding end point...., as far as that appliance is concerned. In other words the current where it was not flowing because the given single point appliance was off, that power starts flowing when that appliance is switched on. Power flows through that appliance and is looped back through the respective ground and neutral lines respectively.
The returning power then terminates at the breaker box where the ground and neutral buss bars are located, and travel from there out via neutral/ground lines.....to earth, or subststion. But, as far as that appliance is concerned, if there was a destructive surge in progress when it was initiated at that point (switched to the on position), that could possibly destroy that appliance as it served as the terminus point of current flow.
Also holds true for any daisy chained circuits where appliances are switched to the active or on position. So it does not really matter if the surge current is flowing through the line, if it is not activated at any given appliance, then it does nothing, as it is not flowing to a grounding source due to appliance switching.
Breaker boxes are not switching sources, as power and ground/neutral lines are kept separate for obvious reasons.
The above are not my words but that of a degreed electrical engineer, for which I agree totally. So as far as I am concerned, that switching point is the point of damage, not the breaker box itself, and so my statements concerning that to be the switching terminus is accurate as far as the load bearing capabilities of that given appliance are concerned. I thought that was fairly clear in previous posts concerning where damage occurs..., if not, then accept my humble apologies. Every one else seemed to understand that.
Part of my disagreeing with you is because of the broad sweeping statements you make in regards to how current flows, I had to really go back and reread over to catch your meanings Your statement that "a protector is only as effective as its earth ground" I agree with totally. But there is a balancing act according to code regulations you seem to ignore, and attempt to treat them separately, when indeed they should be linked. Which is according to state and local codes.
Then there is the statements I made concerning my ground loop situation at my garage which I first made in post 01-19-16, where I explained in some detail about what happened. Your answer to that in your post 01-19-16 was that the inspector did not know what he was talking about, and why did I not question/argue or challenge his assumptions/knowledge and or reasoning's.
My answering post of 01-22-16 stated that I did argue with him, but because he is the county code inspector his rule applies, your follow up answer implied that what he said was nuts. Then my post of yesterday where I mention the same exact situation, and your post after that said....now that I should have listened to the county code inspector......, let me quote you exactly. "Even an inspector warned about your defective earthing and resulting ground loops. Being smarter than all of us, you also argued with him rather than learn.
You know, there is an old ridiculous saying which says, sometimes you can't have your cake and eat it too. Basically you said that this inspector did not know what he was talking about, and that those ground rods were perfectly just, and should have been kept, and the ground loop situation as I described being back fed through my water pipe was just plain wrong.
The above is not word for word, as I have not figured out yet how to cut and splice past written statements into a post being written ...., but that is what you said. And there are other examples of that as well...., but I will pass on those for this post.
Then there is the statement about my not wanting to learn, only to argue..., here's another old statement for you; that quip you made "is like the pot calling the kettle black". If I cant learn.... you certainly do not read thoroughly......, I just made the statement that as far as I knew, my phone is not grounded at my house, so I assumed it must be grounded at the pole on the street, as for our over head phone lines they are optic cable derived; it has no surge protection that I know of. The above is not an accusatory statement, or a know-it-all statement by me. It simply means that I did not install any of the phone line to my house, or at my house, but I have rerouted lines inside my house...., but have not grounded any of them.
TV cable....., again, as I stated above, I did not install the tv cable box or place the grounding rod, or run the cable line to my house.... the cable company did all of that. As far as I know they did all of according to code, as it passed inspection as well. But I am getting rid of the cable company, and putting up an old fashioned antenna....,at that point I also intend to install a new 10 foot ground rod, just for it.
You apparently do not appreciate or understand how homes are wired in the State of Washington. Even with my limited knowledge, I know perfectly well that electric codes can differ form state to state. Here, the state practices a grounding balancing act, where neutral, grounding rod, and water pipe, all must be tied together, this is performed according to an engineering mathematical concept for which I am unknowledgeable about. But are all arranged according to certain parameters and then voted on, and finally formed into state regulation, and then written as RCW and WAC code
But, if one chooses to forgo the above balancing of grounding devices, then changes must be made in order to not create a dangerous ground loop effect. I have mentioned what that in past posts, which you thought was ridiculous, and wondered aloud (in print) why I did not challenge them.
I did.........., and to perform your proper earthing concepts, many changes in box wiring would need to be performed, as doing what you suggest would not be according to code...., even though it......as you say...., should exceed code. Which on the surface sound good, but in practice, if it goes beyond code specifications.....it can quickly get you into trouble.
I have discussed this with my power company....,and according to them and code enforcement, all premises that pass code, pass for human safety and appliance safety, they are quite blunt in those assertive statements. As for my house, my grounding straps are under 5 feet in length, none have sharp bends, my breaker box, both ground and neutral are tied together, and my 3/4 inch water pipe is also tied into the system as a grounding source. I have mentioned this in past posts numerous times. This is all according to state and local codes.
As for your comments concerning 3/4 inch water pipes as being "woefully insufficient" , all the electrical engineers totally have disagreed with your assertions. Now as it being insufficient where impendence is concerned, that I don't know, and you.....for all intents and purposes are most likely totally correct. As no one else seems concerned about it in the least....., what they are concerned about is human safety, power line line surges and THD, and basically in that order. I can't with certainty state weather or not codes in my state deal with surge protection for appliances, as I have not totally looked into it...., but the power company, and code enforcement certainly does strongly imply such things.
Your last paragraph is one of your broad sweeping statements....., and I can't argue with it....; but parts of it, according to this discussion are really mute points.
The point of this discussion/argument from my stand point is how to protect myself from generator surges, and also possibly power company surges; to wit they claim does not happen. Yet due to our last major power outage, they certainly can happen, as I personally know people it did happen to. But they originated from the power company and not from lightning. And so, to sum up, I am installing a whole house surge protector, that will be tied to both earth ground and neutral, and water pipe. Then as a backup....., strip surge protectors at each appliance, most of which will handle about as much as the Zero Surge units will handle....., but to your credit, will cost much less......and we will see just how long they last.
I have enjoyed this little discussion, as I have learned a thing or 2 about surge protection I was a bit sketchy about in the past. As for your proper earthing....., I have no argument for or against.....only for how it stacks up to code...., and if they say no...., or yes with certain defined changes to electrical distribution systems...then fine.
What all have told me, is that if you want to have more earthing at your home....., install a proper licensed LPS. To wit, I have no argument.....,all except the cost.....yikes.
Of course I don't know this for a fact...., but it is possible that where you live, you can wire things up differently than I can legally do here....., and if that is indeed the case...., then most of this sophistry/concatenational argument has been of little utility or use..., but it has been somewhat amusing at the least. Good luck who, and what ever you are......educationally that is......and you are from earth? Sorry...., me bad....just kidding.....?
Effective protection, as recommended, costs about $1 per protected appliance. Anything that costs excessively more means one still refused to read what is recommended.
Wow....short reply...., to what do you assume you believe that I am willing to spend, that costs excessively more, in order for you to judge that I have refused to read what you recommended?
I am installing an MOV whole house surge protector, Eatons CHSPT2ULTRA, that is wired directly in my box and connected to the ground buss in the box. Which is a mute point, as both neutral and earth ground is tied....you do understand that...don't you? I believe that you don't agree with that as a point of purest scientific understanding. Have I miss understood you here? Oh...and don't forget the water pipe.....
Also.......................
I am going to back that up using Tripplights TCP1008TEL strip surge protectors at each appliance, also MOV units, and according to you, they are better than ZeroSurge. According to post #31 you seemed quite ok with the breaker box unit, and in another past post seemed to believe that using one of the cheap MOV strip units to be totally fine as a secondary back up to the breaker box installed unit.
I believe from all of that, that I have come quite close to meeting your specs for cost effectiveness. As for your grounding rod earthing system, that costs more, and will not exactly meet code regulations....without altering wiring in my box. Again...something that we have been over several times, and if memory serves..., you did not much like that either. Which side of that discussion do you wish repudiate?
This is not a conspiracy either for or against what you think, as I have been told it does have merit, but not in the way you discuss in comparison to the way our wiring is connected, there are ground loop problems....another discussion that you said was totally ridiculous, as you said they could not exist? Am I remembering that wrong.
I mean you no disrespect, for all I know you could be some PHD engineer, as I stated in my first reply to your first post, as you certainly write like one. Your like dealing with a really strict DMV (department of motor vehicles) instructor and tester, where everything must read like trying to decipher ITunes instructions. I can see your view, and what you are getting at, I am going to use MOV equipment.....at your suggestion.
Try and view where other people are coming from and why. I must obey codes..., for many obvious reasons.....so many things are interconnected that when we look only at the beginning, and the ending of a statement, we forget the middle. To use another tired phrase, "the devil is in the details"..., and I can see that from your perspective..., and mine as well.
The semantics of this discussion have been very interesting on a sociological level, and I have learned that I need to find better ways to express exactly what I mean. That's a real challenge for a dyslexic, which is a real pain let me tell you. But your one interesting person.....Best of luck to you and what you do!
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