Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
hmm "a walkable community with urban like amenities" ??
that's NOT happening or going to happen anytime soon if ever in Tampa Bay. Tampa Bay has no relevant history to buttress that eventuality - that'a pure folly for the true locals and longtime founders and inhabitants. Those notions may seem desirable to those who come HERE with their own set of experiences in high-denisty NE corridor cities but it will not be "re-created" in the Tampa Bay MSA, no matter how many newcomers become transplants arrive here with even a slight bit of effusive praise for "urban core", high density living. It might exist in very small pockets or certain parts of town, but there will be no such "urbanization" of the MSA. The MSA is far far too de-centralized and far-flung for that kind of transformation to occur. The history of the region doesn't lend itself to that kind of pervasive population shift, migration and culture change.
The reversal of the de-centralization trend isn't happening en masse. There is no foundational cultural underpinnings that support such a "movement". Few young families with children are pursuing the "dream" of high density living in the Tampa Bay MSA. What keeps a community "alive" ? it's the existence of more and more younger people with children.....not 65-70 year old empty nesters trying to stay well, or a bunch of underpaid single younger professionals or a minority of those "partnered up" couples walking fluffy and attending "social justice" rallies and DT festivals.
Look around - at the geography, the plethora of loosely knit smaller towns, cities, PUDs, and satellite newer quasi-townships and resort-style self-contained developments. In-migration from these areas is highly doubtful. Out of State newcomers may seek to re-create this lifestyle, but it's not endemic to Tampa Bay one bit.
So I guess the conclusion drawn by some is that sprawl is what works. A point conceded here several times, has been that Tampa is a driving, suburban, ex-urban city. That said, it has a "city"; one that is being developed. I thought we were discussing how best to utilize the limited land and resources we have to improve upon it.
I guess Tampa is on the slow road to becoming Long Island, or northern NJ. Let me point out, that even with a very highly developed rail system, these areas can have nightmarish commutes, and very high property taxes. The bright spots in the northeast, although, not for some, are NYC and Boston. Yes they are expensive, but everyone wants to live there. They are thriving.
I have to agree a little bit. I’m all for open discussion, but the thread title isn’t “Is Tampa nearly as Urban as Northeast/European Cities” or “Is Urbanism Bad”, it is Tampa Bay Developments/Urban Enthusiast Thread. Lol.
Tampa Bay’s roots development wise (in terms of population growth early on at least) were in Ybor City, one of the most intensely urban settlements in the entire Southern US. And that wasn’t “southerners”, that was Cubans, Italians, etc.
I have to agree a little bit. I’m all for open discussion, but the thread title isn’t “Is Tampa nearly as Urban as Northeast/European Cities” or “Is Urbanism Bad”, it is Tampa Bay Developments/Urban Enthusiast Thread. Lol.
Tampa Bay’s roots development wise (in terms of population growth early on at least) were in Ybor City, one of the most intensely urban settlements in the entire Southern US. And that wasn’t “southerners”, that was Cubans, Italians, etc.
Count me an urban enthusiast but the question is what is the impetus for urban development? Do you ascribe to "if we develop it, they will come."
I have visited Boston over the past ten years and I can see why everyone wants to live there. Philadelphia as well has transformed from a sleepy urban center to a thriving one. What is the vision for Tampa?
Are there tax incentives to make it happen?
I have to agree a little bit. I’m all for open discussion, but the thread title isn’t “Is Tampa nearly as Urban as Northeast/European Cities” or “Is Urbanism Bad”, it is Tampa Bay Developments/Urban Enthusiast Thread. Lol.
Tampa Bay’s roots development wise (in terms of population growth early on at least) were in Ybor City, one of the most intensely urban settlements in the entire Southern US. And that wasn’t “southerners”, that was Cubans, Italians, etc.
https://thehustle.co/rentals-housing...rtment-prices/ I found this article interesting. I don't think rents here are at the point where this exists on any sort of wide scale, but it is interesting to note that people are willing to think outside of the box like this, and I think the opportunity certainly presents itself.
To tedspread: I will at least note that I think there's a bit of causality and correlation not being equivalent here, and the fact that things do not all have to be mutually exclusive. Is there significant development in suburban areas between Tampa/Sarasota, and between Tampa/Orlando in the Winter Haven/Lakeland areas? Of course. Land is cheap. Many still like living in suburbs. And, the growth rate of the whole area has been massive. There's a general rise in population, which is causing areas to be built, further and further out. However, that is not the same as people continuing to flee city centers and leave for the suburbs. There is a desire for increased urban living, much more so than there was several decades ago, when almost all US urban centers were declining or in a state of decay and with NO ONE living in them. That is difficult to refute.
The point you make about development of Little Haiti actually seems to be antithetical to your point that people are seeking to be further out. If that were the case, you would probably be talking about rapid growth in further flung reaches of Miami, like Coral Springs (also probably true, because again, not mutually exclusive, and also, Miami has a rapid demand for housing and growth). The fact that a place like Little Haiti is booming is perhaps most directly related to the fact that there are many people who desire urban living (and Little Haiti, with a pop density of 10K psqm, is pretty dense), and they desire things like walkable areas, short commute (<15 mins), culture/character, etc.
I think the point about a downtown needing retail is a salient one, but so too is the one about it needing more than that to truly thrive. To tell you the truth, I don't see Tampa becoming anything like Philadelphia or Boston in my lifetime, and I'm still pretty young. It just has a built environment and such a massive head start that even the most urbane southern cities can't really be considered analogous to them. That said, I appreciate reasonablevoice defining the thread in a way by talking about how "I thought we were discussing how best to utilize the limited land and resources we have to improve upon it."
To the point about impetus. Well, I think, even in the more suburban areas, there seems to be a desire to create some sort of central areas. Look at Lakewood Ranch https://www.google.com/maps/@27.3939...7i16384!8i8192 similar lifestyle centers are popular in suburban areas throughout the US, while still having an urban element and concept (mixed use, etc.)
Similarly, in the north part of Tampa Bay, Dade City's Main Street
District is thriving, has stood the test of time. https://www.google.com/maps/@28.3643...7i16384!8i8192 These are places generally known for eschewing urban and high density developments, too.
I think it comes to:
1. Leisure: I live in the suburbs, but specifically got the place I did in mind with the fact it was within 30 minutes of both Tampa and Saint Petersburg, to pursue amenities and opportunities in both downtowns. Why? Well, there's high demand for urban living, and so there is limited supply, and that which is there is quite $ pricey. My dollar goes further at this point. That said, neither Downtown Tampa or Saint Petersburg could exist in their current state were it not for the percentage of people who come from at least 10 minutes away to use their various attractions. So, just because someone isn't living in a downtown core or even working in one doesn't mean they aren't using it regularly.
2. Efficiency: For one thing, I think it is common to have various elements of government, commerce, healthcare, in a central area. I also think it is efficient, and helps things to flow more smoothly for the area at large. Cities that completely ignore their urban core seem to do so at their peril (see: Jacksonville), as there seems to be a direct correlation between the vitality and health of a downtown and that of the larger area.
3. Value: One poster mentions where Publix and Wal Mart are setting up. However, the reason they set up where they do is because land is cheap, and often, their tax burden is small or even non existent. The land and building itself is expected to be replaced in 10-15 years, and it creates significant infrastructure costs, and not that many jobs or revenues on a square foot basis. Downtowns on the other hand, are often cash cows for their respective communities. Personally, the idea of more hotel guests, etc. staying downtown is something I am very hopeful for in terms of continued maintenance of services, etc..
I also think there is the question of "as more supply does increase, does the place then also continue to see more and more moving back into the core? London is a very different city, but that is what has happened there over the past 50 yeras. There is also a question of sustainability, regarding ability to pay for the infrastructure costs, overall effect on the environment and economic health of an area, and just general lifestyle questions.
It will be interesting for me to see, but even as someone not living in an urban core, I consider myself an urbanist, and I am very concerned with and regular utilize the urban places in Tampa and Saint Petersburg, and have a vested interest in their continued improvement. I see nothing wrong with you finding a place in the increasing selection of urban/downtown units in this area, and I hope you find something that suits you well, though again, one certainly can't expect Boston or Philadelphia or anything like that, though one can hope it will continue to get better.
Someone here doesn't seem the basics of corporate ("business") real estate purchases and/or investments. Let's be CLEAR. Publix supermarkets doesn't buy property in key markets, especially suburban or ex-urban because it's necessarily CHEAP. PUBLIX buys property principally to "read the tea leaves" on population shifts, and probable/likely development of key residential and sometimes "mixed-use" areas for future developments. They perform detailed studies of major and secondary roads and intersections, and infrastructure, even including school projects. WALMART does the identical thing....but they are also one of the largest pure "real estate companies" in the United States/World. They also engage in pure transactional aspects of the real estate business....and speculation. Generally Publix doesn't engage in those business practices. BENDERSON does both. Publix is investing in property where their customer profile LIVES...and typically that's middle to upper middle class families with children....not within the urban core. Just look at their newer expansion stores not only in the Tampa Bay>South stores but their brand new openings in NC, SC, Nashville, Birmingham, North Georgia etc. That should tell you the truth of the matter. Again, Publix doesn't just buy property because it's CHEAP. They buy property based on likely future population shift thus need. They don't buy property for it's low tax appeal either
https://www.facebook.com/events/2144...44570418932020
I'd like to go to this... but unfortunately this is the last one and I haven't been able to make the previous two either. TPA-AMS, the 5th busiest airport in the world by international traffic... is a big deal.
https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/...xhtml?src=bkmk
Population Estimates by MSA for 2018, released a few weeks ago... the link is fun in general.. but to save some a click, a few data points of interest:
Tampa-St. Petersburg Clearwater 2018: 3,142,663
So: an increase of roughly 51,000 over the past year (slightly down from year before), but still approx 140 people moving here every day on average, probably one of the faster rates of growth in the country. Overall, since 2010, a net growth of approximately 360,000.
Orlando is ahead on total population growth, and by percentage rate of growth as of now, adding roughly 438,000 people since 2010.
At their current populations, and current trajectories of growth (were they to stay exactly the same, which of course is a fallacious principle, and realistically with Orlando's "room to grow", I expect it to accelerate moreso in comparison), it still though will take several decades, and of course there are various factors to consider in why it would or wouldn't. Not that size necessarily makes a place better either, I'm just nerding out over numbers, that's all lol.
Spin officially now launched it's electric scooter system. It is a pilot program, with a 1 year timeline. Looking forward to getting up there and trying them out!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
