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I think it depends on the person. Some people in "industry" have virtually no public speaking skills, some don't relate well to kids, some can't get information across to those who aren't already well versed in the subject, etc. For those who can do the above, it's a great idea.
There are professional teachers about whom that could be said, as well, sadly. Having sat through a course or six on child development and teaching techniques does not make one a natural teacher.
Ideally, all employment-- and especially public contact jobs-- would depend on the individual's skillset. (Yeah, I believe in the Tooth Fairy, too.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
That said, I strongly doubt that my certification has any real bearing one way or another on my ability to teach. You either have it or you don't. Teaching-specific training can be helpful, but after working in education and non-education fields, I feel like it's not actually necessary, in terms of being an effective educator. I have certification, and will maintain it (even though my school does not require it), in case I ever do need it, but I'm the same teacher with or without it.
As soon as I saw the title, I knew you were from TN and possibly the Memphis area.
I don't mind the idea. After all, it all comes down to what is best for the students. I wish they would get rid of Kriner Cash.
I don't live anywhere near Memphis nor do I have children in school. I'm in the opposite end of the state. I do, however, participate in a continued learning program primarily for retirees where we occasionally have classes in which each session is taught by a different lecturer/presenter.
Examples:
We had a multi session class on Homeland Security Research taught by different scientists from the lab/members of the business community/military working on the technology/science.
State of the World and the Rise of AFRICOM
Nuclear Nonproliferation Update
Imaging Science
National Integrated Highway Safety and Security
Defending Against Genetically Modified Organisms
SensorNet
Use of Intelligent Agents for Homeland Security
We had a multiple session class (one session each week) on Local Law Enforcement taught by different people in different divisions of the police department:
There were sessions on:
Local crime statistics (taught by Chief of Police)
Drug enforcement
K-9 (the presenter brought his police dog to class)
Neighborhood Watch
Animal Shelter
We recently had a class called Transportation Technologies. It was 5 sessions (one each week) long. Each session on the following topics was taught by a different instructor from the national laboratory:
Transportation in the U.S.: Recalibrating
the challenges
Internal Combustion Engines, Fuels and
Emissions: Nothing New Under the Sun?
Advanced Materials at Multiple Scales
Center for Transportation Analysis: Seeing
the Big Picture
Electricity and Automation of Mobility in
the Future
And we had one multiple session class on climate science with different presenters from NOAA on different climate topics (modeling, wind, etc.)
None of these people are paid. It's all voluntary.
The point is why can't this (not these above subjects but this method of presentation) be the way some high schoolers are taught?
I wouldn't consider all ed degrees useless. I think it really depends on what university and program you go through. I certainly learned a lot in mine. Did I learn every single thing you need to know to be a good teacher? Of course not. And I would argue that no university prep program (in any major or subject) can do that. There will always be a learning curve when you get out in the real world.
I think it's too easy for someone to take a passing glance at education and make blanket statements about giving extra work and teaching more curriculum being a solve-it-all. That's the sort of statement many make at first when they don't really have the depth of experience to realize that no one solution works for every kid. While I certainly believe it would help some, part of the challenge of teaching is reaching a multitude of students with a variety of learning styles and needs. It's painfully naive to think that any one approach works for everyone.
In my case, I had an engineering degree first. IMO, the ed degree was useless on top of an engineering degree. For starters, it was too simple and, really, it's on the job training that matters. I felt like I was just paying tuition and getting tickets punched. I was never challenged. I've come to the conclusion that if you're smart enough to get through engineering school, you don't need an ed major to teach. As I said earlier, a six month seminar and a year co teaching would have done me way more good. Now if I had no degree, maybe the degree would have done something but I already had a much harder degree to get and years of real world experience. I didn't need more classroom time. I could, easily, condense what I learned, that was useful, into one six month long class that could have been taken concurrent with co teaching to get classroom experience.
I would be a better teacher today if, instead of sitting in a classroom being lectured for 4 years, I'd simply started teaching day one. Any way you slice it it takes 5 years of classroom time to grow a teacher (though I've been told that a 3rd year teacher who came out of industry is the equivalent of a 5th year teacher who didn't.). Few of us hit the floor running day one. I don't think the degree made a hill of beans difference. Not on top of a much harder degree to get. It was simple to get an ed degree and simple to pass my state exams. It was just ticket punching. VERY EXPENSIVE ticket punching. And I went to a school that is known for its ed program. Ed school is piece of cake easy compared to engineering school. Now, teaching is harder than engineering. There are a lot more things to deal with. However, it's on the job training that grows teachers not ed degrees or state certificates.
I think student teaching should be a year long not one semester long and I think you can condense much of what is taught in ed classes into fewer classes. On the job training is far more important than book knowledge here, except for book knowledge in your major. I think every teacher should hold a true major in what they teach. Not X credits so the ed college grants you a major but a stand alone major in your subject area. Then just put an ed certificate vs. an ed degree on top of the subject matter major.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 02-05-2011 at 08:45 AM..
It's not the teaching degree though. It's going through the motions. Only someone who believes they want to teach will spend the thousands of dollars to get the degree. That will weed out a lot of people who just think they want to teach.
Eh. A lot of people who find they don't want to teach (or find that they think they don't want to teach, based on their pre-teaching experiences - like yours truly) still go through the motions to have the certification as a backup plan, or because they started it, and figured they might as well see it through, since many don't realize until the tail end i.e. the student teaching, that it's not for them. I certainly went through my teaching program, which I did conventionally, as an element of my undergrad experience, concurrently with my major and minors in other content areas with more than a few people who decided it wasn't for them, but stayed in the program. I think this is especially true of English majors, who are indoctrinated with the ever-present question of "Oh, you're majoring in English? What are you gonna do with that, teach?"
Loads of the people I student taught with opted not to be in the classroom when all was said and done, they moved on to other pursuits. I did, myself, for about ten years.
Quote:
I would be a better teacher --today if I'd spent the years I spent getting a teaching degree actually teaching instead of sitting in classes that taught things I'd never use. I saw many people quit along the way. They got tired of jumping through hoops for a teaching degree.
I agree. I was EXTREMELY resentful of my certification coursework, even at the time. I was devastated at the amount of time it took away from being able to take additional, useful classes in my content areas, which I adored. I also agree the coursework is not difficult, which made it even more frustrating to have to spend the time on on it. Nothing honed my teaching skills (which were already present) except for actually teaching, in a decent environment. Not my student teaching, which was contrived and wasn't a positive environment, not sitting in a classroom discussing ed theory, not sitting in a classroom discussing the social foundations of education (which was actually incredibly interesting to me, probably the only ed coursework that was). I did learn interesting things in some of my ed coursework. But vocationally, they didn't do a ton to help me as a teacher...only actual experience did that.
I don't totally disregard teacher training. It can make a natural teacher better, done correctly. It cannot turn somebody with no or limited innate skill for teaching into a great teacher, though. Which is why you get loads of certified teachers who are no better at teaching that Joe Schmoe Junior Achievement Presenter who isn't very good at commanding attention in a classroom or coming up with engaging lessons. And why you get the Joe Schmoes who are fantastic, despite never having had one formal class on educating. Teaching is a skill that can't necessarily be taught, although it can certain be honed.
...
That said, I strongly doubt that my certification has any real bearing one way or another on my ability to teach. You either have it or you don't. Teaching-specific training can be helpful, but after working in education and non-education fields, I feel like it's not actually necessary, in terms of being an effective educator. I have certification, and will maintain it (even though my school does not require it), in case I ever do need it, but I'm the same teacher with or without it.
ITA. I really don't think the degree I hold in education did much for me. There were classes here and there but most of the classes could be removed and the end result would have been the same. IMO, it's on the job training that determines if you have what it takes to teach and turns you into a good teacher if you do.
Eh. A lot of people who find they don't want to teach (or find that they think they don't want to teach, based on their pre-teaching experiences - like yours truly) still go through the motions to have the certification as a backup plan, or because they started it, and figured they might as well see it through, since many don't realize until the tail end i.e. the student teaching, that it's not for them. I certainly went through my teaching program, which I did conventionally, as an element of my undergrad experience, concurrently with my major and minors in other content areas with more than a few people who decided it wasn't for them, but stayed in the program. I think this is especially true of English majors, who are indoctrinated with the ever-present question of "Oh, you're majoring in English? What are you gonna do with that, teach?"
Loads of the people I student taught with opted not to be in the classroom when all was said and done, they moved on to other pursuits. I did, myself, for about ten years.
I agree. I was EXTREMELY resentful of my certification coursework, even at the time. I was devastated at the amount of time it took away from being able to take additional, useful classes in my content areas, which I adored. I also agree the coursework is not difficult, which made it even more frustrating to have to spend the time on on it. Nothing honed my teaching skills (which were already present) except for actually teaching, in a decent environment. Not my student teaching, which was contrived and wasn't a positive environment, not sitting in a classroom discussing ed theory, not sitting in a classroom discussing the social foundations of education (which was actually incredibly interesting to me, probably the only ed coursework that was). I did learn interesting things in some of my ed coursework. But vocationally, they didn't do a ton to help me as a teacher...only actual experience did that.
I don't totally disregard teacher training. It can make a natural teacher better, done correctly. It cannot turn somebody with no or limited innate skill for teaching into a great teacher, though. Which is why you get loads of certified teachers who are no better at teaching that Joe Schmoe Junior Achievement Presenter who isn't very good at commanding attention in a classroom or coming up with engaging lessons. And why you get the Joe Schmoes who are fantastic, despite never having had one formal class on educating. Teaching is a skill that can't necessarily be taught, although it can certain be honed.
I am really glad I had my content area degree before I started on my ed degree. I saw a lot of content area weakness in my classmates who didn't have degrees in their subject.
I think student teaching should come first. It's an eye opener. If I had student taught first, in either the school I ended up student teaching in or the charter school I worked in for two years, I would have gotten PhD in chemical engineering and taught at the university level instead of getting a masters in teaching . Fortunately, I landed in a great school where both kids and parents care about grades and they like my background.
I see a lot of content area weaknesses EVERY DAY in the teachers I work with, as well as general knowledge gaps. I am tired of teachers who cannot spell or write. I am even more tired of teachers who admit that they cannot spell or write, and shrug it off as no biggie.
I think student teaching should come first. It's an eye opener.
Can be. At the same time, if I judged everything by the school I student taught at, and the people I student taught under, I'd never have set foot in a classroom again. As it was, I didn't for a near-decade.
I had several observation-based practicum experiences early on in my cert process, well before student teaching, and while it served a purpose, it's not like actually doing it.
I see a lot of content area weaknesses EVERY DAY in the teachers I work with, as well as general knowledge gaps. I am tired of teachers who cannot spell or write. I am even more tired of teachers who admit that they cannot spell or write, and shrug it off as no biggie.
I know doctors whose grammar is atrocious, and I know some docs who seem to lack a lot of "general knowledge". It's not just teachers. Most of the docs I know can spell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TabulaRasa
Can be. At the same time, if I judged everything by the school I student taught at, and the people I student taught under, I'd never have set foot in a classroom again. As it was, I didn't for a near-decade.
I had several observation-based practicum experiences early on in my cert process, well before student teaching, and while it served a purpose, it's not like actually doing it.
Nursing clinical experiences are not like actually working at a nursing job, either, but they give one an idea of what a nursing job is. Also, they give the student a venue to practice skills. I'm thinking student teaching is similar.
Perhaps what the charter schools who prefer certified teachers are really looking for is teaching experience, and people who have a love for teaching. It's the idea that you could pluck people out of industry/business, etc and call them teachers that turned out to be bogus.
I know doctors whose grammar is atrocious, and I know some docs who seem to lack a lot of "general knowledge". It's not just teachers. Most of the docs I know can spell.
I would feel worse about that if the doctors were charged with teaching their patients grammar, writing, and spelling.
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. Fortunately, I landed in a great school where both kids and parents care about grades and they like my background.
