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Old 02-27-2011, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,233,018 times
Reputation: 29983

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The war is not the fault of the soldier....

The failure of the company is not the fault of the rank and file...

The failue of a government is not the fault of the citizens...

Yes, the system is broken but the teachers didn't break it just like the blue collar workers don't break the factory or the soldiers lose the war. Also, just like the soldiers and blue collar workers, we cannot fix it. All we can do is our best with what we're given and hope it's enough just like any worker stuck in a bad system.
Yeah yeah, I know. Faultless, guiltless and blameless. Teachers play no role in why the system is the way it is, and miraculously, teachers are somehow the only set of actors in the system that play no such role. Repeat it enough times and maybe you can make it true.

 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,557,277 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
Yeah yeah, I know. Faultless, guiltless and blameless. Teachers play no role in why the system is the way it is, and miraculously, teachers are somehow the only set of actors in the system that play no such role. Repeat it enough times and maybe you can make it true.
A teacher's role in this system can be compared to a soldier's role in a war.

All right, let's play your way. How can the teachers fix the system? What can I do tomorrow morning that will fix what ails education?
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:27 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,233,018 times
Reputation: 29983
I didn't say they could. That doesn't make teachers unassailable. You're not all saints, and you're not all good at your job. "The system" is perfectly capable of hiring and retaining some incredibly mediocre teachers.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:31 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,284 posts, read 12,932,345 times
Reputation: 8956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
The war is not the fault of the soldier....

The failure of the company is not the fault of the rank and file...

The failue of a government is not the fault of the citizens...

Yes, the system is broken but the teachers didn't break it just like the blue collar workers don't break the factory or the soldiers lose the war. Also, just like the soldiers and blue collar workers, we cannot fix it. All we can do is our best with what we're given and hope it's enough just like any worker stuck in a bad system. You can't blame the teachers because they didn't create the system and they are powerless to change the system. The only place I control is my room and even that is subject to acceptance of those higher than me. If they don't like what I'm doing, I either change what I'm doing or look for another job.

This is like steering a freighter. It takes a long time to turn it around and you need the right people at the wheel.

Seriously, the only things I can think of, that schools can do, to improve education are a longer school year and better educated teachers (subject matter wise). Parents can improve education by teaching their children to value education and holding them accountable for their own grades. Teachers should be held accountable for teaching what they're supposed to teach.

Of all the people involved here, parents hold the most power. They determine their child's attitude towards education and their voices are heard louder than the voices of the teachers at school board meetings.
What's so sad is that you cannot even think creatively anymore.

The changes needed require a complete paradigm shift - NOT longer school years or better educated teachers - a more creative, holistic approach to education coming from more balanced, self-actualized PEOPLE (not drones).
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,557,277 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
I didn't say they could. That doesn't make teachers unassailable. You're not all saints, and you're not all good at your job. "The system" is perfectly capable of hiring and retaining some incredibly mediocre teachers.

If I didn't break it and I can't fix it, how do you think I'm responsible for it's condition???

You admit I can't fix it but yet blame me for it's condition. That makes no sense whatsoever. You are blaming the soldier for losing the war. All the soldier can do is the best they can with what they have and if that is not good enough, it's not good enough.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:34 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,284 posts, read 12,932,345 times
Reputation: 8956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
If I didn't break it and I can't fix it, how do you think I'm responsible for it's condition???

You admit I can't fix it but yet blame me for it's condition. That makes no sense whatsoever. You are blaming the soldier for losing the war. All the soldier can do is the best they can with what they have and if that is not good enough, it's not good enough.
You and the soldiers are free to mutiny at any time. You are not victims. You could affect change if you wanted to. You just don't want to because it would put your "security" (i.e., cold, hard cash) at risk.

It always comes down to money. You'd think there would be one or two idealistic, crazy teachers in the whole lot, but I guess that is too optimistic on my part.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:36 PM
 
17,183 posts, read 22,932,109 times
Reputation: 17478
The US education system was designed in the 1870s to turn out factory workers. The factories are long gone and the system needs an update. Leaving things to the states is a mistake.

However, trying to dismantle the system with nothing to put in its place will cause chaos. Parents would have no place to send their children while they work.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:37 PM
 
13,254 posts, read 33,541,543 times
Reputation: 8104
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
I disagree with this point. In order for the system to change, it has to be completely disassembled from top to bottom (or bottom to top) - the whole thing has to go . . .

As to your initial question as to why the profession is no longer held in high esteem . . . here are some clues:

1) The high school drop out rate is unacceptable (google for your own state - the numbers are staggering). There are REASONS students are dropping out in record numbers and it is not just because they are misfits . . . "the system" is failing to keep students engaged . . .(see #2)


My kids HS has a 97% graduation rate. I guess they're doing something right.

Quote:
2) "Teaching to the Test" does not make a fascinating learning environment. Just the opposite. This is well-known, not news, yet teachers are not taking to the streets in protest because they like their job security too much.
I'm no fan of tests but they are a good indicator of whether material has been taught or not. I agree that there is too much emphasis on standardized tests.

Quote:
3) Critical thinking has gone by the wayside in favor of propaganda - filling heads with "facts." There is no room for debate in school. Teachers are boss. Students are subservient clones-in-the-making
According to my daughter (grad student in International Education) the one thing that American students do well at is critical thinking. I'm not sure where you went to school, but debate is alive and well in my kids school. I've heard many times about discussions in the classrooms around the dinner table.

Quote:
4) School is stressful. In most areas, it starts too early in the morning. There is too much ROTE homework - no one cares about the students needs for balance.
I agree with that.

Quote:
5) Schools are for the most part ugly looking prison-like atmospheres that do not promote well-being or imagination.
I've lived in three different school districts and all were really nice, clean and shiny.

Quote:
6) Schools are hierarchial - students are down at the bottom of the hierarchy, after the janitors
I don't understand that at all. I can't tell you how many school and district meetings I've been to where teachers, Principals and parents have spoken passionately about how to better our schools FOR THE KIDS. Again, I don't know what your experience is, but I feel pretty good about my kids school district.

7) Other
[/quote]
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Old 02-27-2011, 07:38 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,557,277 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
What's so sad is that you cannot even think creatively anymore.

The changes needed require a complete paradigm shift - NOT longer school years or better educated teachers - a more creative, holistic approach to education coming from more balanced, self-actualized PEOPLE (not drones).
Who says I can't think creatively? I just know how the system works. I have a limited amount of power in my own room. As long as I'm perceived by the powers that be to be doing a good job, they'll let me teach the way I want to. If they don't like the way I teach, I have to change it.

We're steering a freighter here. You don't jam the wheel over hard. You nudge her onto the course you want.

I disagree. A longer school year and better educated teachers would be a good start. There is a difference between a teacher who has an actual degree in what they teach and one who doesn't. The fact a longer school year works can be seen in countless countries around the world that teach better than we do on a longer year. What the top countries have in common is, 1) teaching is a respected profession 2) education is valued and 3) a 220+ day long school year. I would consider all three a very good start to a bright future.

All we have to do is take a look at teaching models around the world and pick from the ones that work. Unfortunately, I'm not free to do that. The time school starts, the lenght of the day, the length of my classes, the length of the year are all set for me. I know I could do a better job with six more weeks to teach per year. I could go deeper. We'd need to review less. Kids wouldn't forget as much over the long summer break.

I told you what I see as helping NOW. I'm not the one who can't think creatively here. When what you're doing isn't working, you change it. Emmulating countries that teach better on longer school years would be a positive change.
 
Old 02-27-2011, 07:41 PM
 
Location: earth?
7,284 posts, read 12,932,345 times
Reputation: 8956
Quote:
Originally Posted by nana053 View Post
The US education system was designed in the 1870s to turn out factory workers. The factories are long gone and the system needs an update. Leaving things to the states is a mistake.

However, trying to dismantle the system with nothing to put in its place will cause chaos. Parents would have no place to send their children while they work.
People are pretty creative . . . the scores of SAHM's COULD home school, en masse . . . or the older kids could self-home school . . . there could be creative solutions IF people were open-minded and wanted it bad enough . . . the problem is that no one wants to buck the status quo because it is going to take some work and struggle to put a viable model in place . . .
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