U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Teaching
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-29-2013, 03:16 PM
 
3,241 posts, read 5,140,198 times
Reputation: 2296

Advertisements

Okay so the name may not roll off the tongue like the first two (and it in fact may be trademarked by another group anyways), but the sentiment remains the same. Perhaps rather than unions that are heavily-focused on the labor aspects of teaching, educators need a professional organization that parallels what doctors and lawyers have? Maybe we need to have the freedom and responsibility to self-police fellow teachers and even college training programs like these organizations do?

I've often had people tell me that teachers can't be "professionals" because they're part of a union. There might be a grain of truth to that notion, but that does not mean that educators don't need a platform and a voice to provide input on how to improve education in this country and to share best practices. If it's inevitable that we must move towards a post-union teaching profession and market-driven school reforms, more than ever we're going to need something to maintain that teachers have a decent environment in which to work and at least a minimum level of employment protections.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-29-2013, 04:37 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,532,932 times
Reputation: 1022
Isn't that what the National Education Association does? I do like the idea and while I also mind an AEA setting the guidelines for teacher schools and administering licensing test, it's important to remember that unlike the ABA and AMA, the states and federal government have a large say in what goes in public education. Some areas make it easy to become a teacher because of shortages which makes non-teachers take it less seriously when states and localities need to come up with better incentives to attract good teachers. An organization controlled by teachers that self police each other the way the ABA and AMA does can raise the prestige of the profession and make people see it like a profession. However, I can see a lot of people protesting the fact that an AEA like organization is robbing them of their voice to control what goes on in their childrens school when it comes to teachers.

I do disagree with you on two things though: 1) In other countries, teachers are part of a union and they're still considered professionals. 2) I don't think it's inevitable that we'll move completely towards a non-unionized and market driven profession. Before that happens, we'll probably end up with a national shortage as teachers leave and students stop choosing to go that route in school.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-29-2013, 07:23 PM
 
Location: St Louis, MO
4,677 posts, read 4,457,666 times
Reputation: 2961
The states will just create more alternative paths to licensing and flood the labor market with even more low cost, low quality, short term teachers to prevent the "AEA" from having any level of control over who can be a teacher. If the vast majority of lawyers and doctors were public sector employees, you would see the same thing there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 11:11 AM
 
439 posts, read 795,893 times
Reputation: 568
Many doctors and nurses belong to unions, so that is just garbage reasoning.

Teaching is a profession because it requires many years of training before one can practice.

Just because it is female-dominated doesn't give people the right to belittle it.

And what in the hell are you even talking about? Do you think there are not licensing boards in every state of the union that sanction teachers who break the law or commit unethical acts? Teachers are policed--BIG TIME--in education and probably more than any other occupation. This is the craziest OP I have ever read.

The ABA and AMA are largely lobbying groups, just like NEA and AFT are in large part lobbying groups. All of these organizations have basically the same goals.

And you better pray it isn't "inevitable" we have privatized education and "post union" teaching. Are you a shill for TFA? The reformers are not winning. Are you just willing to throw in the towel?

This isn't just about the future of education, but of our democracy. Reformers are against democracy because they are neoliberals.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 11:21 AM
 
439 posts, read 795,893 times
Reputation: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Isn't that what the National Education Association does? I do like the idea and while I also mind an AEA setting the guidelines for teacher schools and administering licensing test, it's important to remember that unlike the ABA and AMA, the states and federal government have a large say in what goes in public education. Some areas make it easy to become a teacher because of shortages which makes non-teachers take it less seriously when states and localities need to come up with better incentives to attract good teachers. An organization controlled by teachers that self police each other the way the ABA and AMA does can raise the prestige of the profession and make people see it like a profession. However, I can see a lot of people protesting the fact that an AEA like organization is robbing them of their voice to control what goes on in their childrens school when it comes to teachers.

I do disagree with you on two things though: 1) In other countries, teachers are part of a union and they're still considered professionals. 2) I don't think it's inevitable that we'll move completely towards a non-unionized and market driven profession. Before that happens, we'll probably end up with a national shortage as teachers leave and students stop choosing to go that route in school.
Again, this is garbage stemming from the notion teachers are the problem. Teachers are licensed and policed to DEATH in this country.

No amount of bogus organizations will raise the "prestige" of an occupation when it is sexist attitudes that belittle teaching.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 01:08 PM
 
3,241 posts, read 5,140,198 times
Reputation: 2296
Okay, just to be clear, I disagree with mostly everything being pushed by reformers such as Rhee, Kopp, Klein, and the fox in the henhouse himself, Duncan. I think that their reforms are incredibly destructive to schools and teachers and have resulted in marginal improvements in isolated cases, at best.

When I look at doctors and lawyers, these are professions that have a lot of prestige and respect, and I want that for teachers. It is my belief that the power that the ABA and AMA have are a big reason why those respective professions are strong. These organizations have certain privileges (like being allowed to police themselves) that are codified into laws nationwide.

I'm not looking for more scrutiny for teachers or training schools, I just want the responsibility for teacher scrutiny to belong to teachers, since they know best about what makes a good teacher. I'm also suggesting that teachers need have the power to make more decisions about the future of the profession and what happens inside of schools. It is my fear that unions are losing their strength with the aforementioned reforms being put into place, and I would just like to see the creation of an organization that would be able to represent all teachers and pre-empt some of the unfair practices that states and some schools engage in.

Hopefully that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from. I doubt my idea would ever have the chance of seeing the light of day, but I think it would be helpful, if nothing else, if the two biggest national teachers unions merged and served as a collective counterweight to some of the most egregious reform ideas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 03:56 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,532,932 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonysam View Post
Again, this is garbage stemming from the notion teachers are the problem. Teachers are licensed and policed to DEATH in this country.

No amount of bogus organizations will raise the "prestige" of an occupation when it is sexist attitudes that belittle teaching.
Sexist attitudes? I've never experienced that, but then again I'm a male. In my experiences, the ones who think very highly of teachers are other professionals and/or left leaning individuals. The only ones I've met who tend to be critical of teachers are those who are more conservative in their political beliefs. I also live in a city in the midatlantic so geography could also play a role. If I went farther south or towards the midwest then beliefs about teachers would probably change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post
Okay, just to be clear, I disagree with mostly everything being pushed by reformers such as Rhee, Kopp, Klein, and the fox in the henhouse himself, Duncan. I think that their reforms are incredibly destructive to schools and teachers and have resulted in marginal improvements in isolated cases, at best.

When I look at doctors and lawyers, these are professions that have a lot of prestige and respect, and I want that for teachers. It is my belief that the power that the ABA and AMA have are a big reason why those respective professions are strong. These organizations have certain privileges (like being allowed to police themselves) that are codified into laws nationwide.

I'm not looking for more scrutiny for teachers or training schools, I just want the responsibility for teacher scrutiny to belong to teachers, since they know best about what makes a good teacher. I'm also suggesting that teachers need have the power to make more decisions about the future of the profession and what happens inside of schools. It is my fear that unions are losing their strength with the aforementioned reforms being put into place, and I would just like to see the creation of an organization that would be able to represent all teachers and pre-empt some of the unfair practices that states and some schools engage in.

Hopefully that gives you a better idea of where I'm coming from. I doubt my idea would ever have the chance of seeing the light of day, but I think it would be helpful, if nothing else, if the two biggest national teachers unions merged and served as a collective counterweight to some of the most egregious reform ideas.
The AFT and NEA basically serve that role right and IIRC one is more focused on reform issues while the other on labor rights, but just last year the AFT brought up the idea of a "bar exam for teachers" which would essentially create an across the board standardized test that the profession could control.

A Bar Exam for Teachers? - Steve Clemons - The Atlantic
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 04:30 PM
 
Location: My beloved Bluegrass
13,583 posts, read 9,307,851 times
Reputation: 18086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Octa View Post
Sexist attitudes? I've never experienced that, but then again I'm a male. In my experiences, the ones who think very highly of teachers are other professionals and/or left leaning individuals. The only ones I've met who tend to be critical of teachers are those who are more conservative in their political beliefs. I also live in a city in the midatlantic so geography could also play a role. If I went farther south or towards the midwest then beliefs about teachers would probably change.



The AFT and NEA basically serve that role right and IIRC one is more focused on reform issues while the other on labor rights, but just last year the AFT brought up the idea of a "bar exam for teachers" which would essentially create an across the board standardized test that the profession could control.

A Bar Exam for Teachers? - Steve Clemons - The Atlantic
I believe that was the intent of the Praxis.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 05:26 PM
 
2,612 posts, read 4,482,045 times
Reputation: 3931
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clevelander17 View Post

When I look at doctors and lawyers, these are professions that have a lot of prestige and respect, and I want that for teachers. It is my belief that the power that the ABA and AMA have are a big reason why those respective professions are strong. These organizations have certain privileges (like being allowed to police themselves) that are codified into laws nationwide.

.
I don't think those associations have anything to do with the prestige of lawyers and doctors compared to teachers. Instead, consider this:

Number of teachers in the US: about 7 million
Number of lawyers in the US: about 1 million
Number of physicians in the US: less than 1 million

Minimum years of school required to be a teacher: 4
Minimum years of school required to be a lawyer: 7
Minimum years of school required to be a doctor: 8 (not including residency)

The professions of doctor and lawyer are just more elite. They are more competitive for entry. Anyone at all can become a teacher, and we still don't have enough of them. Only the best students can become doctors, and maybe the second or third best are lawyers. Teachers are basically the bottom 7 million. That's why we don't have the same prestige, and never will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 06:06 PM
 
1,356 posts, read 1,532,932 times
Reputation: 1022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldhag1 View Post
I believe that was the intent of the Praxis.
Yeah I imagined though it's weird how I can be certified to teach in on state because I've passed all my exams yet move to another state and still have to take more because they have different requirements for the same job. That's the problem with praxis well that and Pearson making doing to to make a killing rather than work with the profession.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marie5v View Post
I don't think those associations have anything to do with the prestige of lawyers and doctors compared to teachers. Instead, consider this:

Number of teachers in the US: about 7 million
Number of lawyers in the US: about 1 million
Number of physicians in the US: less than 1 million

Minimum years of school required to be a teacher: 4
Minimum years of school required to be a lawyer: 7
Minimum years of school required to be a doctor: 8 (not including residency)

The professions of doctor and lawyer are just more elite. They are more competitive for entry. Anyone at all can become a teacher, and we still don't have enough of them. Only the best students can become doctors, and maybe the second or third best are lawyers. Teachers are basically the bottom 7 million. That's why we don't have the same prestige, and never will.
Being a doctor or lawyer seems a lot more elite because it is as you said: the top students are entering those professions and are willing to go through the time commitments to become one. Teaching is slowly changing. Now in order to continue with certification, teachers need a masters which usually take around two years. The problem with making it more competitive is that teaching becomes less attractive if everything else remains equal. The very first time I learned about what it takes to become a teacher, I was initially turned off and thought about not becoming one because the payoff wasn't worth it to me, but I choose to stick with it even though I did consider not going through with it a few more times. Teaching should be a competitive field to get into and not one where someone comes in through TFA or some similar alt cert. However, it needs to pay more to attract students who would think about entering another profession such as a medicine, law, engineering, accounting,etc.... My belief that we'll get there someday is one of the reasons why I choose to stay.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education > Teaching
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top