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First, don't ask me why, but for some reason elementary teachers tend to arrive early as opposed to staying late.
Second, just because people aren't at school building when you are or you don't see cars in the parking lot does not mean they don't work as hard as you. Many spend hours at home doing work that no one sees. Others do the bulk of their work on the weekend. I?
You're not hearing what I'm saying. I do that AND stay late to tutor, set up labs, clean up after labs, process chemical waste, set up demos, etc, etc, etc... If I was done when I left at 5:00 every day I wouldn't be complaining. And FTR, I'm at school well before first bell as well. That's when I run my copies and do things like set chemicals out for labs (they can't be left out in the room overnight). My typical day is 6:45-5:00 and I take 20 hours of work home every week. The custodians crack jokes if the science teachers leave when it's still light out during the winter. I leave for work at 6:00 AM and make it a point to be out of the building by 5:00 so I'm home by 6:00. Then I spend a couple of hours grading after dinner. The rest I do on the weekends.
I STILL take papers home to grade and do my planning on the weekend because I don't have time to do it any other time. I do talk to other teachers. I have friends who are elementary teachers and they do not take the 20 hours of grading/planning home a week that I do nor do they put in 10 hour days every day just managing the physical aspects of their jobs. I prep for both chemistry and math and I can tell you the math teachers don't put in that time either. The English teachers might come close on time with all the reading they do but even they say at least they can take their work home with them while much of mine must be done at the school. I do not get why people think a teacher is a teacher is a teacher. Some majors are harder to get and some jobs require more time. Why is it wrong to say that should be considered?
I find it frustrating that I work so many more hours than most teachers yet that isn't even a consideration. Hopefully I can bid the next math job and leave the 10 hour days with piles of grading to take home to someone else. I'm tired.
Not too long ago we had a poll on this site asking how many extra hours teachers put in each week. While I do have company where I come in on this, we're the minority by far. I'd bet most of us who were claiming over 60 hour work weeks teach science, high school music and English or coach during the extra hours. If I were ever told by the union to work my contract, all labs and demos would stop immediately. Every lab involves 2-6 hours of set up and clean up and 10-20 hours of grading for me. I pay my daughter to come in once a month and wash glassware. One nice thing about this job is that I have enough glassware and storage that I can just set it aside until I have enough to pay someone else to wash it.
And it's time to leave for work so we'll have to pick this up later.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-10-2014 at 04:02 AM..
Huh? Apparently you didn't get what I was asking. In one state I worked in 6th graders only did Earth Science, 7th graders did nothing but biology and all 8th graders did nothing but Chem/Physics. Another state had the same setup but did Earth for 8th and Chem/Physics in 9th. Other states had all branches and strands taught each year, but less in depth. As a military wife, one thing I can appreciate about the Common Core, even if I hate it for the most part, is that it might eliminate the problem of transferring students doubling up on one area in a subject and missing a whole chunk of another area. My oldest daughter did not have a single American History class until 11th grade because of moving.
So, am I to assume NJ does the all areas, but less in depth, each year?
It is that basic algebra that presents the issues, along with the basic addition and subtraction for a few. Glad you haven't experienced it. It is frustrating for both student and teacher.
The reason there are strands is because it is up to the individual district to decide when each science is begun.
In NJ, 9th grade is part of high school.
As for American history that is odd. Every state I have lived in kids could take it any year in high school they chose to. Most of our students take it either freshman or sophomore year but some wait until 11th.
You're not hearing what I'm saying. I do that AND stay late to tutor, set up labs, clean up after labs, process chemical waste, set up demos, etc, etc, etc... If I was done when I left at 5:00 every day I wouldn't be complaining. And FTR, I'm at school well before first bell as well. That's when I run my copies and do things like set chemicals out for labs (they can't be left out in the room overnight). My typical day is 6:45-5:00 and I take 20 hours of work home every week. The custodians crack jokes if the science teachers leave when it's still light out during the winter. I leave for work at 6:00 AM and make it a point to be out of the building by 5:00 so I'm home by 6:00. Then I spend a couple of hours grading after dinner. The rest I do on the weekends.
I STILL take papers home to grade and do my planning on the weekend because I don't have time to do it any other time. I do talk to other teachers. I have friends who are elementary teachers and they do not take the 20 hours of grading/planning home a week that I do nor do they put in 10 hour days every day just managing the physical aspects of their jobs. I prep for both chemistry and math and I can tell you the math teachers don't put in that time either. The English teachers might come close on time with all the reading they do but even they say at least they can take their work home with them while much of mine must be done at the school. I do not get why people think a teacher is a teacher is a teacher. Some majors are harder to get and some jobs require more time. Why is it wrong to say that should be considered?
I find it frustrating that I work so many more hours than most teachers yet that isn't even a consideration. Hopefully I can bid the next math job and leave the 10 hour days with piles of grading to take home to someone else. I'm tired.
Not too long ago we had a poll on this site asking how many extra hours teachers put in each week. While I do have company where I come in on this, we're the minority by far. I'd bet most of us who were claiming over 60 hour work weeks teach science, high school music and English or coach during the extra hours. If I were ever told by the union to work my contract, all labs and demos would stop immediately. Every lab involves 2-6 hours of set up and clean up and 10-20 hours of grading for me. I pay my daughter to come in once a month and wash glassware. One nice thing about this job is that I have enough glassware and storage that I can just set it aside until I have enough to pay someone else to wash it.
And it's time to leave for work so we'll have to pick this up later.
If I you are spending four hours a day taking care of the lab, you are doing it wrong.
If you spend 2-6 hours setting up EACH lab, you are doing it wrong.
I taught chemistry for seven years. I guarantee I did twice the number of labs you did as I had my students for an hour and a half everyday for a year. You are either wildly exaggerating or you are not very good at chemistry.
I think the past few pages demonstrate why we can't distribute pay based upon how challenging one position is over another. It's all perception and the grass is always greener. One person is always going to have something they do that cancels out what the other does. Due to standards based grading in the elementary school I spend numerous hours more than a MS or HS teacher inputting grades at the end of the quarter, but the others spend time doing something I don't, I'm sure. Who am I to determine which is more demanding?
When we judge a position by what we perceived when our "kids went through elementary school", we are doing the same thing non-teachers do when they judge our positions based on their own or their kids' experiences in school.
The reason there are strands is because it is up to the individual district to decide when each science is begun.
In NJ, 9th grade is part of high school.
As for American history that is odd. Every state I have lived in kids could take it any year in high school they chose to. Most of our students take it either freshman or sophomore year but some wait until 11th.
She never had it in elementary or middle school was my point - in the system it was taught in 6th grade, she was there 5th grade, in the system it was taught 5th grade she was there in 6th grade. Same thing happened in middle school, the school she was in 7th grade taught it in 8th grade, the school she was in 8th grade taught it in 7th grade. She did end taking German culture and three different state histories. We are a military family, it can be an issue that there is not a national curriculum. My second kid ended up with 4 years of middle school/jr high (6,7,8, and 9) for the same reason.
I guess you still don't get what I originally asked so I looked it up. NJ does all areas (Earth, Life, Physical) each year in middle school rather than concentrate on one area, such as only Biology in 7th grade, each year. There are advantages and disadvantages in doing either.
If I you are spending four hours a day taking care of the lab, you are doing it wrong.
If you spend 2-6 hours setting up EACH lab, you are doing it wrong.
I taught chemistry for seven years. I guarantee I did twice the number of labs you did as I had my students for an hour and a half everyday for a year. You are either wildly exaggerating or you are not very good at chemistry.
No, I'd say you did it wrong. I've been doing this for 6 years. How you can set up a lab, tear down the lab, clean the lab, clean the glassware and process the chemical waste in less than 2 hours for all but the siimplest labs is beyond me. For example the big ion identification lab we do at the close of semester one will take several hours of mixing chemicals and loading them into pipets. Just labeling the pipets takes one prep period. I find if I don't do the lab this way, chemicals get contaminated and the last hours get lousy results. By having a set of pipets at each station I just have to reload them between classes and it cuts down on contaminated chemicals.
How about the sugar curve density lab? That one takes me several hours to set up because of the sheer volume of sugar solutions that must be made up and getting all of it to dissolve for the 20% and 25% solutions requires heating the solutions. Cleaning the lab after this lab is always a chore. They get sugar solutions everywhere but the lab teaches standard curves and reading curves so it's worth doing in spite of the rediculous set up.
Today's lab wasn't bad. I just had to dilute 3 liters of HCl down to 6.0M and then fill containers for each lab station and all I have to do to process the waste is neutralize the waste acid. Still, I'll have 2 hours in by time everything is washed, put away and the waste neutralized.
For the lab before this one, we used the logger pros so I spent a couple of hours setting up stations with a lap top and making sure everything was working. Then a couple more putting it all away. The next lab also uses them so I'll be checking equipment and connections again. The day of the lab, I have to get here an hour early so I can make sure each station will log on. If I could count on technology working every time my life would be so much easier.
I can't think of a single lab that doesn't take me at least 2 hours. Even the observation lab wtih aluminum and copper II chloride takes more than that by the time I process the waste.
For calorimetry labs I don't have much up front but I have to wash all the calorimeters before they are put away and handle the waste. I made the mistake one year of thinking my students left them clean. That cost me a few calorimeters.
IMO, if you're not taking the time to do labs right, you're doing it wrong. Every lab has chemicals, equipment, glassware and waste to deal with. Sometimes it's the set up (as in computer based labs because I have to set each station up and make sure each piece of equipement is working) and sometimes it's the clean up and waste processing. I will have liters of waste acid to neutralize after todays lab. Labs like the ion identification lab have multi step waste processing because some chemicals have to be separated out before the rest can be dehydrated for land fill disposal.
The only way I can think of to do less work here is to do fewer labs. I do about 20 big labs per year and about 10 smaller labs. Of the big ones, only 4 will require a full formal report. I do one each quarter. I used to do two but that was just way too much work on the grading end.
How much time did you spend setting up labs? If you can do it in so much less time, I'd like to get a list of the labs you did. Everything I do takes at least 2 hours and many of them take 6 or even more. When I mix chemicals for the reaction rate lab I'll be here until 9:00 the night before the lab. Solutnios for 60 lab groups with enough to spare so that students who use too much or have to restart don't result in running out takes a lot of time.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-10-2014 at 01:27 PM..
Another factor to be considered is student numbers. At my school in California, math and language arts classes are held to numbers in the 20s. Meanwhile, as an history teacher, my classes range from 35-45. The reason is because the Fed. doesn't care about history scores. They only track math and L.A. My job is much more difficult and stressful just because of the sheer numbers. In many cases I have 3 times as many students. Subs don't want to take my classes if they can get the other subjects instead. It is just easier for them. Any change in pay formulas should include stipends for larger class sizes.
I agree with the person who said everyone has it rough for one reason or another. The science teacher has the labs. The English teacher has the papers. The electives teachers have classes with 60+ kids. The gym teacher has to go out in the hot sun or the cold wind or the stinky gym every day. Then there's after school practice and games. No one has it easy.
I agree with what Ivory said that experience is over time, what makes most teachers better. Many teachers in their first few years think they are awesome at it and deserve to be paid more (I know I did when I was a rookie) because you're too close to the problem to see you're not really God's gift to the classroom. It's only after you've taught for 5 years that you realize, "Yikes, okay, that wasn't great." It's after 10 years that you realize, "I'm so sorry those children had to have me my first year or two." It's after 15 years that you realize how much there is left to learn. You get the idea. Teachers who have gone through that process over and over and honed what they're doing are (in general) providing a better product.
"Quality" in teaching is most commonly evaluated by principals, but that's very often subjective. The "difficulty" of subject matter really depends on the individual. Most people go into a subject they like and have some talent for. Ask the calculus teacher to chase after the football team every day after school in the heat and you'll make them as miserable as asking the coach to teach the calculus curriculum (being stereotypical in jest, of course.) Ask the music teacher to teach history or the history teacher to teach music and you'll get scary results from both. Those people chose to go into that field for a reason.
No, I'd say you did it wrong. I've been doing this for 6 years. How you can set up a lab, tear down the lab, clean the lab, clean the glassware and process the chemical waste in less than 2 hours for all but the siimplest labs is beyond me. For example the big ion identification lab we do at the close of semester one will take several hours of mixing chemicals and loading them into pipets. Just labeling the pipets takes one prep period. I find if I don't do the lab this way, chemicals get contaminated and the last hours get lousy results. By having a set of pipets at each station I just have to reload them between classes and it cuts down on contaminated chemicals.
How about the sugar curve density lab? That one takes me several hours to set up because of the sheer volume of sugar solutions that must be made up and getting all of it to dissolve for the 20% and 25% solutions requires heating the solutions. Cleaning the lab after this lab is always a chore. They get sugar solutions everywhere but the lab teaches standard curves and reading curves so it's worth doing in spite of the rediculous set up.
Today's lab wasn't bad. I just had to dilute 3 liters of HCl down to 6.0M and then fill containers for each lab station and all I have to do to process the waste is neutralize the waste acid. Still, I'll have 2 hours in by time everything is washed, put away and the waste neutralized.
For the lab before this one, we used the logger pros so I spent a couple of hours setting up stations with a lap top and making sure everything was working. Then a couple more putting it all away. The next lab also uses them so I'll be checking equipment and connections again. The day of the lab, I have to get here an hour early so I can make sure each station will log on. If I could count on technology working every time my life would be so much easier.
I can't think of a single lab that doesn't take me at least 2 hours. Even the observation lab wtih aluminum and copper II chloride takes more than that by the time I process the waste.
For calorimetry labs I don't have much up front but I have to wash all the calorimeters before they are put away and handle the waste. I made the mistake one year of thinking my students left them clean. That cost me a few calorimeters.
IMO, if you're not taking the time to do labs right, you're doing it wrong. Every lab has chemicals, equipment, glassware and waste to deal with. Sometimes it's the set up (as in computer based labs because I have to set each station up and make sure each piece of equipement is working) and sometimes it's the clean up and waste processing. I will have liters of waste acid to neutralize after todays lab. Labs like the ion identification lab have multi step waste processing because some chemicals have to be separated out before the rest can be dehydrated for land fill disposal.
The only way I can think of to do less work here is to do fewer labs. I do about 20 big labs per year and about 10 smaller labs. Of the big ones, only 4 will require a full formal report. I do one each quarter. I used to do two but that was just way too much work on the grading end.
How much time did you spend setting up labs? If you can do it in so much less time, I'd like to get a list of the labs you did. Everything I do takes at least 2 hours and many of them take 6 or even more. When I mix chemicals for the reaction rate lab I'll be here until 9:00 the night before the lab. Solutnios for 60 lab groups with enough to spare so that students who use too much or have to restart don't result in running out takes a lot of time.
I did 1-2 full labs and three mini labs a week. That ended up being about 60 full 1 1/2 hr labs a year. The most complex ones were some of the AP ones we did as well as some of the more complicated marine organic chem. The fact that you are wasting time washing glassware is ridiculous. Students should wash their glassware as they go. The fact that you are generating LITERS of acid, is ridiculous, there is nothing about acid and bases that cannot be taught small scale except titration and those don't need to be neutralized do they? Add that to the fact that you are choosing to generate ridiculous amounts of waste, and I can see why you are having so many problems. And you are making 25% AND 20% sugar solution? WHY???? Make one, super saturated, and dilute it down. Again, if you are using verniers, and it is taking you hours to set them up and calibrate, you are doing it wrong. Maybe the first time you use one, it might take some time but HOURS??? Bizarre. BTW, they are designed to be set up and run by the STUDENTS
If you chose to work hard instead of smart, go ahead but that is your problem. I taught far more labs, more AP labs, and still didn't spend the ridiculous number of hours you claim.
The fact that you are disorganized, refuse to move to small scale, don't hold your student to high expectations in the lab, and haven't figured out the laws of molality/molarity does not mean you deserve more money than anyone else.
I did 1-2 full labs and three mini labs a week. That ended up being about 60 full 1 1/2 hr labs a year. The most complex ones were some of the AP ones we did as well as some of the more complicated marine organic chem. The fact that you are wasting time washing glassware is ridiculous. Students should wash their glassware as they go. The fact that you are generating LITERS of acid, is ridiculous, there is nothing about acid and bases that cannot be taught small scale except titration and those don't need to be neutralized do they? Add that to the fact that you are choosing to generate ridiculous amounts of waste, and I can see why you are having so many problems. And you are making 25% AND 20% sugar solution? WHY???? Make one, super saturated, and dilute it down. Again, if you are using verniers, and it is taking you hours to set them up and calibrate, you are doing it wrong. Maybe the first time you use one, it might take some time but HOURS??? Bizarre. BTW, they are designed to be set up and run by the STUDENTS
If you chose to work hard instead of smart, go ahead but that is your problem. I taught far more labs, more AP labs, and still didn't spend the ridiculous number of hours you claim.
The fact that you are disorganized, refuse to move to small scale, don't hold your student to high expectations in the lab, and haven't figured out the laws of molality/molarity does not mean you deserve more money than anyone else.
Students do wash their own glassware but I end up with everything used for mixing and setting chemicals out at stations. Students only wash what is in their drawers. I get the glassware used for mixing, dispensing chemicals and collecting the waste when I tear down the labs and put everything away.
Have you ever done the sugar curve lab? It's the concentrated solutions that are hard to make. THEY are the ones that take the most time. It's much easier to mix only what you need of the higher concentrations, so yes, I mix each concentration separately. I'd be here all week if I tried to make enough 25% to dilute down to the other concentrations. It would take me more time to mix enough super concentrated solution and dilute it down for 60 lab groups and then I'd still have to dilute it. I'm not sure where you think this would be a time saver. It wouldn't be.
Setting up 12 lab stations with the logger pros takes an hour if everything works. It takes longer when it doesn't and it always turns out it doesn't. Making sure everything is clean and put away correctly is another hour. That's just the way it is. Getting stuff out, setting it up and testing to make sure it works, cleaning up and putting it away takes time. That's all there is to it.
I don't believe you did the labs if you didn't put in the time. Either that or you have someone to help you. Working by myself, just mixing the chemicals for 60 lab groups for something like a reaction rate lab will take me 2-3 hours by itself. The big ion identification lab takes longer than that an that one requires waste separation before I can dehydrate and send chemicals to land fill (I follow the Flinn waste processing guidelines which were agreed upon by our fire marshall). And the majority of my labs are small scale.
As to holding my students to high standards in the lab I do but I know better than to extent that to handling the chemicals that will be used by the next class. Too many of my students don't care about the next group and I even have a few who would deliberately sabotage someone elses experiment. I teach at a public school remember?
Edited to add: I have to laugh, I spent half an hour setting up a lab with the logger pro and when I came back to see the data, the computer had crashed so I just set it back up. I need to know how long it takes to complete to decide whether or not to include this step in a lab later this week. Looks like I'm going home late today.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-11-2014 at 02:40 PM..
Ivory, if you are back next year you ought to discuss with your principal about getting a student aide. Being a research assistant looks good on a transcript. But that means you have to trust the kid assigned to the job, something I think you struggle with a bit.
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If I was done when I left at 5:00 every day I wouldn't be complaining. And FTR, I'm at school well before first bell as well. That's when I run my copies and do things like set chemicals out for labs (they can't be left out in the room overnight). My typical day is 6:45-5:00 and I take 20 hours of work home every week. The custodians crack jokes if the science teachers leave when it's still light out during the winter. I leave for work at 6:00 AM and make it a point to be out of the building by 5:00 so I'm home by 6:00. Then I spend a couple of hours grading after dinner. The rest I do on the weekends. 
