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I have a question for people who think teachers do not need a license. Have you ever spent a considerable amount of time in the classroom. I am talking 6 hrs straight maybe for 2 weeks straight and see exactly what teachers do, I am not talking about an hr here or there. It amazes me how easy people think it is, and that just about anyone can teach.
If you think getting your point across on this forum is hard, try dealing with students that their parents don' t think teachers need a license or something along this line of thinking. That is why we can't produce students.
In Illinois, teachers are required to maintain and renew their teaching certificate. There is a program that insures the teacher participates in school improvement, workshops/seminars, takes coursework, etc. prior to renewal. I think it is important to keep current in education (best practice, current research...) order to continue teaching.
Why aren't college professors required to be licensed, specifically those at public Universities?
Professors at colleges and universities are reasearchers first and teachers second. Many whom I know feel that teaching gets in the way of their most important job-research and garnering grants for themselves and their institution.
I know this (that long-standing charter schools prefer to hire teachers with licenses) from reading their websites....
None of which will tell you about the actual back room politics.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
One of the requirements to get a license in health care professions is a degree in the discipline you are seeking the license, e.g. medicine for an MD, nursing for an RN, etc.
Really? C'mon. I suggest that the licensing/regulatory environment in the health industry is problematic and because a medical degree is a requirement for licensing, you try to twist what I say into suggesting that you should not have degrees? huh? Obviously, you can remove the licensing requirements (or change them) and still require medical degrees.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
There is not much difference in the example above, but there's plenty of difference between most high school students and most college students. Even more between a kindergartner and a college student. The problem is, some of these PhDs, etc, can't write a lesson plan, can't cover the material in the time allotted, can't control a class, and so forth.
To say it again, I think secondary and primary education should be handled differently. And there is not a dramatic difference between high school and say community college, yet community college works just fine without having licensed teachers. Community colleges don't require a stupid license that is not correlated with teaching ability, they rely on demonstrated teaching ability. Most teachers at community college start as part-time employees. The bad ones aren't asked back. Only experienced teachers that have demonstrated that they are good teachers are hired full-time.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
And most colleges are not hiring second career people, either, they are hiring people who made a career of education.
No, but most have ph.ds which means they've sent at least 4+ years as researchers in their field. Most are also still involved in research in vary capacities.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
So are primary/secondary teachers.
No, not really. There are few part-time appointments and there are no "post-docs" and things of that nature. Many teachers are hired straight out of school as permanent employees.
To say it again, I think secondary and primary education should be handled differently. And there is not a dramatic difference between high school and say community college, yet community college works just fine without having licensed teachers. Community colleges don't require a stupid license that is not correlated with teaching ability, they rely on demonstrated teaching ability. Most teachers at community college start as part-time employees. The bad ones aren't asked back. Only experienced teachers that have demonstrated that they are good teachers are hired full-time.
No, but most have ph.ds which means they've sent at least 4+ years as researchers in their field. Most are also still involved in research in vary capacities.
No, not really. There are few part-time appointments and there are no "post-docs" and things of that nature. Many teachers are hired straight out of school as permanent employees.
How can you control the medical profession (for example) w/o licensing? Who is to know if a person actually received a medical degree without some documentation?
There is a big difference between a 14 yr old freshman and a 19+ yr old college sophomore, whether that sophomore is in a community college or an Ivy League University. The freshman can't even legally drive a car in most states (to give one example). The CCs don't hire people with no teaching experience if they can help it. There is a naive idea that you can take a person out of their cubicle at IBM or wherever and stick them in front of a classroom of 25 kids, and they will do a better job than a prepared teacher!
In my district, teachers get tenure after a number of years. Before that, they are probationary employees. They are the ones who are subject to layoffs and RIFs. My DH did a post doc and did no teaching whatsoever. It was just a way to continue with his research. Post docs don't have anything to do with teaching, even on the university level.
How can you control the medical profession (for example) w/o licensing?
Firstly, I don't mind mild regulation in health care. But, I also realize that any licensing etc will distort the market. I think the free markets can create self regulated health industry, but at least short term it could cause some pain that may not be worth it. The whole point of free-market economics is that the free market will self regulated, etc. In no sense is free-market economics without debate, but it does give a rather obvious answer to "how....".
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Originally Posted by Katiana
Who is to know if a person actually received a medical degree without some documentation?
Is this a serious question? Its called a transcript.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
There is a big difference between a 14 yr old freshman and a 19+ yr old college sophomore, whether that sophomore is in a community college or an Ivy League University.
I obviously do not agree with this. Firstly, there is a huge difference between the students at a community college and at an Ivy league and that is why I spoke of the community colleges. Community colleges are rather similar to high schools. The kids are a bit more mature, and you do have some older students. But a good deal of the students are people that are hardly interested in being there, etc etc. And obviously 5 years makes some difference, but 14 year olds are young-adults.
But whatever differences that do exist, why would they make licensing a critical requirement in one case and useless in the other? So the kids are a bit more immature in High School, why would this make licensing a critical requirement vs an environment were the kids are a bit less immature? I really don't know what sort of argument you are trying to make.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
The CCs don't hire people with no teaching experience if they can help it.
There is a naive idea that you can take a person out of their cubicle at IBM or wherever and stick them in front of a classroom of 25 kids, and they will do a better job than a prepared teacher!
And there is also a naive idea that you can take a 22~24 year old straight out of college with no real world experience in any field and put them threw a credential program and create a good teacher despite their lack of experience in any field except education.
Being a good teacher requires two things. 1.) Having the ability to communicate ideas well, etc. 2.) Having actual knowledge about the world that is worth communicating.
As it currently stands the primary/secondary focus on #1 where as our university system focuses on #2. Given how the systems rank, I think focusing on #2 is more fruitful. I think there is a good reason for that too. Its easier to teach someone with #2 how to do #1, than it is to take someone with #1 and give them #2.
Personally I think our primary education is "okay" where our secondary education system is complete crap and this is demonstrated in how our kids rank. They rank worse and worse globally as they get older. I think perhaps the reason why are primary education works better is that it can get away with a focus on #1, where as secondary needs to focus more and more on #2 as the kids get older. And this leads to the licensing requirements, they effectively favor #1 over #2 and as a result should be dropped from secondary education. I see no harm in dropping them from primary either, but primary should at least require some course work related to child's education. They also distort the labor markets and increase educational related costs.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
In my district, teachers get tenure after a number of years. Before that, they are probationary employees. They are the ones who are subject to layoffs and RIFs. My DH did a post doc and did no teaching whatsoever. It was just a way to continue with his research. Post docs don't have anything to do with teaching, even on the university level.
"Probationary employee" has a much different meaning in our primary/secondary education system than it does in the university system, where in the former case it tends to just mean you'll be the first to get the boot if there are budget problems etc.
Also, to suggest that post-docs don't have anything to do with teaching is rather inaccurate. What your Husband did or did not do is not an indication of what occurs in general. Anyhow, Post-docs often do not involve teaching but its becoming increasingly popular for post-docs to have some teaching responsibilities. But, I said "Post-docs and things of that nature", here I'm talking about all the various sorts of temp employment you can get after getting your ph.d.
The college/university system "tests" their teachers much more than the primary/secondary system does before they hire them permanently. The only major problem is that if someone is brilliant in the field, they may get away with being a horrible teacher at a research university. But, these guys do not end up teaching much in the first place.
Actually barbers are required to maintain a license, at least in the state of Pennsylvania. And yes they are subjected to spot inspections by the health inspector is someone turns them in.
So User_id should the board examiners for the Northeast Regional Boards just not show up when taking your dental boards? Should states just issue a dental license to anyone graduating from a dental school in the US? This topic has been brought to table plenty of times and trust me when I tell you that there will always be a board exam for doctors and dentists. There's no possible way someone can just go to dental school and graduate and get a license and put it up on the wall without accountability, there's no way that'll happen, ever! There are way too many bad dental and medical schools out there not to have it. Would you go to a dentist that went to a crappy dental school? And how do you know that dentist even went to dental school in the united states? Would you put much faith into someone who went to dental school in another country? Do you think they have the same educational standards as some of the states here in this country? Be careful how you answer those questions.
Is this a serious question? Its called a transcript.
So you make an appointment with a doctor you have never been to before, and you're supposed to say "show me your transcript"?
Or you go to the ER, and you are unconscious. How are you supposed to ask for the transcript then?
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And obviously 5 years makes some difference, but 14 year olds are young-adults.
You either don't have kids, or your kids are very young. If you have ever raised kids, you will realize that 14 year olds are not young adults. They are barely teenagers. My point is that the people teaching them need some knowledge of how a child's mind works, and what kind of expectations to have re: kids.
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The only major problem is that if someone is brilliant in the field, they may get away with being a horrible teacher at a research university. But, these guys do not end up teaching much in the first place.
Maybe they don't do much teaching at a research university, but they do teach at many other colleges.
DH just said he knows of no post-docs who taught classes; some do give seminars. But that is to peers, not students who don't know anything about the topic at hand. This was at the University of Illinois.
So User_id should the board examiners for the Northeast Regional Boards just not show up when taking your dental boards? Should states just issue a dental license to anyone graduating from a dental school in the US.....
I'm not going to suggest what the dental industry should do, because I have no real experience with it other than getting my teeth cleaned and such!
All I'm saying is that licensing requirements and regulation can greatly distort a market economy. At times the distortion is worth the benefit. But the distortions exists regardless. In the health care industry in general, I think to some degree the licensing/regulation can be loosed up. Not removed. For one I think health insures need to be regulated both for financial reasons and "people reasons". I'm in no sense trying to suggest the Health care industry's sole problem is the licensing/regulatory environment.
In the case of education, which I do have experience in, I see no real benefit to having licenses and therefore they should be removed so the associated markets can operate more freely.
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