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Actually, it was two separate thought processes of mine. North Beach Person told of a career changer that lasted three weeks in the classroom. I talked about my cousin who couldn't make it in the high school classroom. He was laid off, but he could have found another engineering job. I think he went into teaching b/c he didn't want to move away.
I still do not think it "puts to bed" the notion. The idea that just because someone is smart and knowledgeable means they will be a good teacher is just as wrong as the idea that someone that is effective in "teaching" will be a good teacher in the more general sense.
The charter schools prefer licensed teachers because they know how to teach.
Or at least, they knew how to teach large groups of typical children according to the prevailing educational theory when they got their licenses.
Whether they're actually effective teachers isn't something which can be tested, and which varies depending on student population, tools available, compatibility of the teacher with the system, and level of teacher burnout. (Probably some other stuff, too, but it's early.)
Don't you want your doctor to have at least graduated from medical school? Or would you be happy with any old snake oil salesman calling him/herself a doctor?
It's not that simple, Katiana. Define "medical school". Osteopath or MD? Eastern medicine? Holistic?
When you get into an area like maternal-fetal care/childbirth, there are even more options. Lay midwives, birthing attendants, CNMs, family physician vs obstetrician vs perinatalogist...
Mental health offers an even wider range.
In some cases, licensed and certified is absolutely of maximum importance. In others...not so much. In a few, it mostly gets in the way.
I have a question for people who think teachers do not need a license. Have you ever spent a considerable amount of time in the classroom. I am talking 6 hrs straight maybe for 2 weeks straight and see exactly what teachers do, I am not talking about an hr here or there. It amazes me how easy people think it is, and that just about anyone can teach.
If you think getting your point across on this forum is hard, try dealing with students that their parents don' t think teachers need a license or something along this line of thinking. That is why we can't produce students.
I won't suggest "anyone can teach". But I will absolutely state that it is not an ability that is conferred with a license, or even necessarily a shiny new BA/BS in Education.
Now, if you want to suggest that the same degree teaches you management skills, child development, or educational theory, I'll agree. But those aren't necessary for teaching. They're necessary for classroom management-- which seems to be what you're describing (and which frankly I'd chew off an arm before I'd attempt, simply because I'm not that crazy about other people's children in large herds). But classroom management and teaching are two different subjects, even if often combined for expediency's sake.
How can you control the medical profession (for example) w/o licensing? Who is to know if a person actually received a medical degree without some documentation?
Probably the same way they did it for years with architects and engineers. There are still "direct entry" architects practicing, in fact. And I would suggest that competence is as important with building design and assembly. (Well, unless you enjoy having your second story cave in on your head while eating dinner.)
So User_id should the board examiners for the Northeast Regional Boards just not show up when taking your dental boards? Should states just issue a dental license to anyone graduating from a dental school in the US? This topic has been brought to table plenty of times and trust me when I tell you that there will always be a board exam for doctors and dentists. There's no possible way someone can just go to dental school and graduate and get a license and put it up on the wall without accountability, there's no way that'll happen, ever! There are way too many bad dental and medical schools out there not to have it. Would you go to a dentist that went to a crappy dental school? And how do you know that dentist even went to dental school in the united states? Would you put much faith into someone who went to dental school in another country? Do you think they have the same educational standards as some of the states here in this country? Be careful how you answer those questions.
I'm curious about something.
Most of the hospital clinics here are staffed by residents-- doctors who have not completed their education (classroom, yes, residencies of up to 5 years, no). And yet we consider them competent enough to take care of patients, even without that piece of paper. Is it because we don't really care if they kill off a few of the medically indigent, or is it that they just might actually be competent?
So you make an appointment with a doctor you have never been to before, and you're supposed to say "show me your transcript"?
Or you go to the ER, and you are unconscious. How are you supposed to ask for the transcript then?
Okay, I have to tell you-- I look at degrees when I'm shopping for a new doc. (Which, medical coverage being what it is, I've done a few times recently.)
In the ER...honestly, I'm usually a couple minutes from respiratory arrest at that point. The local kindergarten teacher is welcome to treat me, as long as she's carrying steroids and an oxygen tank. Seriously, though, at that point I would assume that the hospital has done its homework before contracting with the ER physician.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
14 year olds are not young adults. They are barely teenagers.
Agreed.
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Originally Posted by Katiana
My point is that the people teaching them need some knowledge of how a child's mind works, and what kind of expectations to have re: kids.
Mmmmm...if you're teaching herds of them at once, possibly, but at that point crowd control would be equally useful. For small group or individual teaching, I don't know that I agree it's strictly necessary-- and that's something addressed by college courses or independent study, not by licensing. Licensing exams measure knowledge (and only about as well as any other standardized test), they don't convey it.
All I'm saying is that licensing requirements and regulation can greatly distort a market economy. At times the distortion is worth the benefit. But the distortions exists regardless. In the health care industry in general, I think to some degree the licensing/regulation can be loosed up. Not removed. For one I think health insures need to be regulated both for financial reasons and "people reasons". I'm in no sense trying to suggest the Health care industry's sole problem is the licensing/regulatory environment.
When you approach this purely from an economic POV, you lose me. Frankly, after the last several years, the concept of "deregulation of industry" has lost quite a lot of its shine.
Anti-parent teacher? HUH? My point was a purely logical one. Raising children does not make one an expert on child development or child education, nor does the lack of having kids make one less knowledgeable about these subjects.
I'd hesitate to dismiss empiricism altogether, personally.
When you approach this purely from an economic POV, you lose me. Frankly, after the last several years, the concept of "deregulation of industry" has lost quite a lot of its shine.
It has lost "quite a lot of its shine" in the masses, but the arguments are the same. Also, dogmatically deregulating industries is just as dangerous as dogmatically regulating industries. For the next few years, the country will go threw a regulation orgy and it will have a number of consequences. Regulations always have side effects, the question is whether the side effects are worth it or not. In some cases they are in others they are not. I do not think they are worth it in the case of education (in particular secondary education).
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Originally Posted by Aconite
I'd hesitate to dismiss empiricism altogether, personally.
The point of my comment is not to dismiss empiricism, but rather making irrational inductions from one's limited experience. Conclusions regarding childhood education, etc etc need to be based on studies, not what some mom tends to think because "she's a parent".
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Seriously, though, at that point I would assume that the hospital has done its homework before contracting with the ER physician.
