Is Teaching Bashing Going to Resolve the Real Issue at Hand? (stressful, complain)

[NCyank]

Originally Posted by antredd

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You seem to forget that policemen can start right out of high school after going to a police academy training, and that doesn't take 6 years to complete.

On the other hand, teachers have to at least earn a BA, then after earning a BA, the state of CA wants to get more money from us by making us train for another two years just to get a DUMB teaching credential as you have said in a previous post, so teachers are in college the equivalent of 6 years instead of four, and we haven't become permanent teachers yet. By a policeman's or fireman's 6th year, they are well into their careers.

I agree. That's a lot of education and training to get teachers ready for the classroom. I'm surprised that we still manage to have such low test scores (as compared to other first world nations) and embarrassingly high drop out rates given all of the education our educators have, not to mention the amount of money we put in.

[ccnj]

Originally Posted by user_id

This is just so silly....and is rather telling. You think your degree is so important...god forbidden someone with out one makes more! Geez..

Firstly, police/firefighters/paramedics don't get paid dramatically more than teaches. But secondly lets review why they get a decent salary.

- They risk their lives
- Their job is physically demanding (Firefighters/paramedics often go 24 hours without sleep, etc).

Now, I know teachers will love to equate dealing with that "problem kid" in their class to pulling dead bodies out of car crashes. But the reality is that police/firefighters have it much harder than teachers and their pay reflects that. Teachers get paid relatively well because they have to get degrees etc, police/firefighters get paid relatively well because their job is physically demanding and risky.

And that extra duty? You mean like when they are risking their lives protecting you from wild fires?

Geez, you think teaching in an inner city is bad...trying being a police/firefighter in one...

I started teaching the same year one of my friends joined the police force. 9 years later, he makes double my salary. The benefits for both of us are similar and our retirement packages will be fairly similar as well.

You can point out the positives or negatives of either career to make your pov look better.
Sure the police officers risk their lives every now and then. Unless they are working in a high crime area though, much of the day could also be spent with routine traffic stops. Ever see a police officer directing traffic for hours on end? I wouldn't really call that high risk. I know police officers work hard, just trying to prove a point

I've worked in an urban NJ school system for 9 years now. Do parents showing up for conferences in a drunken stupor count as a risky work environment? Because I've been there on more than one occassion.

I think one of the main reasons why many teachers get annoyed at the comments that people make is because people assume they know what our job is, because they once went to school. They assume that we get there when the kids do and leave when the kids do. In between we teach a little, play a little and so on. I know other jobs have challenges too, but teachers seem to be easy targets because, well, "we pay your salary".

[antredd]

Originally Posted by ccnj

I started teaching the same year one of my friends joined the police force. 9 years later, he makes double my salary. The benefits for both of us are similar and our retirement packages will be fairly similar as well.

You can point out the positives or negatives of either career to make your pov look better.
Sure the police officers risk their lives every now and then. Unless they are working in a high crime area though, much of the day could also be spent with routine traffic stops. Ever see a police officer directing traffic for hours on end? I wouldn't really call that high risk. I know police officers work hard, just trying to prove a point

I've worked in an urban NJ school system for 9 years now. Do parents showing up for conferences in a drunken stupor count as a risky work environment? Because I've been there on more than one occassion.

I think one of the main reasons why many teachers get annoyed at the comments that people make is because people assume they know what our job is, because they once went to school. They assume that we get there when the kids do and leave when the kids do. In between we teach a little, play a little and so on. I know other jobs have challenges too, but teachers seem to be easy targets because, well, "we pay your salary".

Excellent points.

[antredd]

Originally Posted by NCyank

I agree. That's a lot of education and training to get teachers ready for the classroom. I'm surprised that we still manage to have such low test scores (as compared to other first world nations) and embarrassingly high drop out rates given all of the education our educators have, not to mention the amount of money we put in.

That can be clearly explained why our country appears to be lower than other world nations. World nations don't test ALL OF THEIR KIDS. In other nations, they have a college track and a trade track for their students, especially in Europe. The elite go to their elite schools and your middle class or commoners go to their schools that prepare them for a trade. Then they test their elite kids only, and compare their elite kids' test scores to ALL OF OUR USA KIDS SCORES.

Heck, if they tested about half of my class who are proficient, and just used their scores and not my non english speaking kids, as well as kids who came to me 2 grade levels below the 4th grade scores, then I WOULD BE CONSIDERED A GREAT TEACHER DOING HIS JOB VERY WELL as those WORLD NATIONS.

TO BE HONEST, if we are testing ALL of our students, low performing, very bright, rich, poor, severely disabled, and just unmotivated to learn, we aren't doing that bad in comparison. I wonder if we just compared our best and brightest kids test scores with that of those World Nations-----HELLO!!!!!!

[TuborgP]

Originally Posted by antredd

OK so why do they complain about it so much and say they can't do the job? They need to talk about the challenges and how they are devising ways to overcome the difficulties. That will garner more respect.

I think you misunderstood me. Let me clarify what I mean. These teachers are not complaining at all. I was just giving a perspective on WHAT TEACHERS HAVE TO DEAL WITH, SINCE A PREVIOUS POSTER said that a teachers job is like going to DISNEYLAND EVERY DAY. They don't have to even be inner city techers dealing with the dangers of being shot these days. Again, there are many news stories that have been reporting kids bringing guns to school and shooting kids in the burbs..................[/quote]

I hear you but they do complain a lot. You weren't saying but they do.

[antredd]

Originally Posted by TuborgP

I think you misunderstood me. Let me clarify what I mean. These teachers are not complaining at all. I was just giving a perspective on WHAT TEACHERS HAVE TO DEAL WITH, SINCE A PREVIOUS POSTER said that a teachers job is like going to DISNEYLAND EVERY DAY. They don't have to even be inner city techers dealing with the dangers of being shot these days. Again, there are many news stories that have been reporting kids bringing guns to school and shooting kids in the burbs..................

I hear you but they do complain a lot. You weren't saying but they do.[/quote]

You got me there, so do you talk to every inner city teacher and hear ALL of them complain about working in the inner city or at schools with a high percentage of gangs present on campus? It sounds as if you are saying that teachers at those sites shouldn't complain about working there because of their pay, benefits, and union that backs them? Talk to me, cause I don't want to ASSume.

To a certain degree, everyone complains about something on their jobs, it seems to me that working conditions and the conditions of schools for our kids and teachers arent that important. I guess that's why a parent sued the State of CA, the Williams Law, won so that schools that needed repair would get it, and kids would have the necessary textbooks to learn.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by antredd

....my job is just as stressfull....

No, sorry it is not. You get to sleep each night, you don't have to worry much about not coming home one yet. Seriously, to even suggest a teaching job is as stressful as a firefighter, etc is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by antredd

You seem to forget that policemen can start right out of high school after going to a police academy training, and that doesn't take 6 years to complete.

I don't forgot that, but what is your point?

Originally Posted by antredd

By a policeman's or fireman's 6th year, they are well into their careers.

Again, so what?

Originally Posted by antredd

You seem to forget too that firemen and policemen aren't in any student loan debt like many teachers

No, I don't forget that too. Its not your employers job to pay for your student loans. Also, you can get an education without getting loans. Students choose to go into debt because they do not want to wait and save up for the costs. This can make a lot of sense, because you can start making more money faster.

Also, a lot of police/firefighters have degrees. The hiring is pretty competitive and degrees are preferred.

Originally Posted by antredd

Yes they risk their lives just like teachers sometimes risk our lives. You must be living on another planet to think that teachers are safe on their campuses. REMEMBER COLUMBINE IN COLORADO? I would love for you to go to a Compton or Watts High school and act like you don't have to worry about getting beat up or shot with incidences like those are far too common on those campuses

Even in Compton and Watts teachers rarely get killed. But why are you even talking about them? I'd rather be a teacher in Compton than a policeman in Compton.

Originally Posted by antredd

Again depending on the grade level, a teacher's job can be just as physically demanding, ESPECIALLY WHEN WE HAVE TO RUN TO A FIGHT AND BREAK UP THE FIGHT BY PHYSICALLY REMOVING KIDS APART.

Oh geez....do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Yeah physically demanding because you have to run what 50 feet now and then to break up a fight....

Originally Posted by antredd

Hummmm? I don't know if that was your way of throwing a low punch. But as I said, you are more than welcome to go to any Compton High School or Watt's high school, and tell me if you didn't feel like you were risking your life when the gangs start to fight and shoot at each other and racial fights break out on those campuses,

Again, this is all you got. Talking about Compton and Watts. Just in case you did not know, the vast majority of the country is much safer than Compton and Watts.

I mean you have to mention some of the unsafest areas to try to make it seem like teachers are our risking their lives all the time....

You type this stuff with a straight face?

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by NCyank

I agree. That's a lot of education and training to get teachers ready for the classroom. I'm surprised that we still manage to have such low test scores (as compared to other first world nations) and embarrassingly high drop out rates given all of the education our educators have, not to mention the amount of money we put in.

There should be no surprise. Our students and their parents have totally different attitudes than students and parents in other nations. Here, education is a right and the education system is required to cater to the individual. In other countries, education is a privilidge and the student works to come up to the level of the class. In Japan, if you fall behind, you go to school on Saturday until you catch up.

Also, when you compare our system to other countries there's one glaring difference. The number of days of school per year. The successful countries are well over 200 school days per year while we're hovering around 170 and how many of those do they pull our kids out for assemblies, state testing, field trips, etc, etc, etc...

Compared to us (we're at 174 days) students in countries where the school year is 200+ days get 5+ more weeks of school. Over the course of 12 years, that's the equivalent of, nearly, 2 extra years of education. And that's just counting up to 200 days and not considering that some nations do more.

I don't think our low test scores have to do with incompetence on the part of teachers. I think it has to do with the fact our students and their parents expect education to cater to the individual and we have a short school year.

[North Beach Person]

The other piece you forgot to mention is that in many countries tracking is the norm and only the highest track is tested. Here we test evreybody. My school system pays for the PSAT for all students including Special Ed. Guess how that makes the scores look. A personal pet peeve is the A/B schedule. If you factor it out students going to class evey other day for 85 minutes are in class 39 hours/year less than students in class every day for 45 minutes. That 39 hours equates to an entire 9 week quarter.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

The other piece you forgot to mention is that in many countries tracking is the norm and only the highest track is tested. Here we test evreybody. My school system pays for the PSAT for all students including Special Ed. Guess how that makes the scores look. A personal pet peeve is the A/B schedule. If you factor it out students going to class evey other day for 85 minutes are in class 39 hours/year less than students in class every day for 45 minutes. That 39 hours equates to an entire 9 week quarter.

Their top still does better than ours and they still have more students scoring well. It has more to do with the value of education than anything. They strive to be at the top. Our kids expect the teacher to figure out how to make them learn with little effort on their part. That makes a huge difference.

I don't get why we don't start emmulating the countries that teach well. Start by lengthening the school year. 5 more weeks of school means 5 more weeks of material taught and 5 weeks less material forgotten over the summer. The kids would still have a 6 week summer break and the teachers 4. Of course, no one could use the excuse that teachers deserve low pay because they get the summers off then

There is no way we can compete with countries where education is valued to the point the student takes the initiative if they fall behind and who teach 14%+ longer each year.