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LOL!! And we have (we = everybody) argued this point for several years/threads! Texas is partially southern (culturally speaking), but vastly less so in the Panhandle and West Texas areas.
I have southern roots going back forever--I just don't embrace it, and I don't want to live in an area where the South and Deep South dominate! The farther west in Texas, the better it gets, LOL! I identify with my Texan/Western roots far more than my distant past southern ones!
That's probably why I don't care for ET, LA, MS, VA etc. as places to live. They're just TOO southern for me, both culturally and climate-wise. Great places to visit, but not to live. That goes for the Midwest that I've seen, too!
Well, watch out - apparently them's fightin' words to some people around here!
I love Southern culture - all of it - from the refined "southernality" of Virginia and North Carolina, to the Scots Irish Appalachians, to the plain living, hot and humid Deep South with it's slow, dusty pace, to the craziness of Southern Louisiana and the rugged individualism of East Texas.
Regardless of where I live, I carry the South in my heart and in my personality - in my speech patterns and my cooking and my approach to other people. I will never be ashamed of my roots - I am PROUD of my heritage and my family and our history we have forged in the American South since the early 1600s.
Here is the tombstone of a distant ancestor of mine, laying in Yorktown, VA. Check out the dates. I could never deny my southern heritage, or ever leave it behind me. It's who I am.
Well, it would be factually WRONG - I mean even in the most legal sense wrong - for someone from Georgia, or anywhere else, to say that Louisiana is not a southern state.
And I would agree. BUT...there is no FACTUAL way to prove it IS. And heck, hon, there is no "legal sense" of it at all. As it goes, matter of fact, there was not really any "Southern Ethos" until quite a bit after the American Revolution...and probably right around the "Nullification Crisis" in the 1830's. It wasn't really until then there began to develop a sense of "the South" as a truly distinct and prideful entity.
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I mean, even on a map it's obviously a southern state, and it was a Confederate state as well, so that would be a ridiculous assertion.
Of COURSE it is! I completely agree. I am just saying that I have some "Deep South Purists" of both friends and kin who exclude Louisiana from the South because it is west of the Mississippi River and South Carolina because it is "too Colonial".
What does one say to something like that...other than laugh a bit..I guess! At the same time, the arguments you make for Louisiana being a "true Southern state are the same that can easily be made for Texas as well. That is, in the deepest part of the geographical South, and an all-out Confederate state! No question on that score.
Now then, I HASTEN TO ADD, I am NOT suggesting in anyway, shape, or form, that you have ever advanced the notion that Texas is NOT a Southern state...because you HAVE always been clear as crystal on THAT matter! And I got-dam sure as hell appreciate it!
So, really? The ONLY issue between us is the niche of far East Texas being "Deep South" or not, correct? It is. It has all the traits of the history/culture shaped by those settlers from the "Lower South" who settled it. Good lord, people from Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Georgia, overwhelmingly made up the same. To boot? Their diaries/memories of the time? They recorded almost NO distinction from what they left and what they went to.
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That level of ridiculousness is not on the same level as stating that East Texas is not culturally part of the Deep South. Saying that Louisiana isn't a southern state wouldn't be a subjective statement only - it would be factually and historically and legally a mistaken and wrong statement. In other words, OBJECTIVELY wrong.
See above statements. And what is it with all this "legal" terminology?
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As you point out - our disagreement on whether or not East Texas is culturally part of the Deep South is clearly a SUBJECTIVE argument. Both of us can "prove" our points - at least to ourselves and those who already agree with us - but neither of us can prove objectively that our position is the only correct one.
Again, I agree. I just hope you do as well!
You are a friend and a VERY worthy opponent on this subject!
Well, watch out - apparently them's fightin' words to some people around here!
I love Southern culture - all of it - from the refined "southernality" of Virginia and North Carolina, to the Scots Irish Appalachians, to the plain living, hot and humid Deep South with it's slow, dusty pace, to the craziness of Southern Louisiana and the rugged individualism of East Texas.
Regardless of where I live, I carry the South in my heart and in my personality - in my speech patterns and my cooking and my approach to other people. I will never be ashamed of my roots - I am PROUD of my heritage and my family and our history we have forged in the American South since the early 1600s.
Here is the tombstone of a distant ancestor of mine, laying in Yorktown, VA. Check out the dates. I could never deny my southern heritage, or ever leave it behind me. It's who I am.
LOL!! They are indeed fightin' words to some!
Interesting tombstone--I'm surprised that the information is still readable from the late 1600s!
When we were going over the old homestead in West Texas last November, I found an old obituary about my maternal great grandfather. He was not born in Texas, but a deep south state. I was shocked to the core, and I don't know why I never knew this! So now I have deep South roots on both sides of the family, and I can't deny it, either.
I'm not ashamed of them--they are what they are--but I just identify far more with my paternal side's roots. My great-whatever paternal grandfather came to Texas with the DeZavala colony sometime in the 1830's. I could apply for membership in the DRT (Daughters of the Republic of Texas), but I have never bothered to do so.
And I would agree. BUT...there is no FACTUAL way to prove it IS. And heck, hon, there is no "legal sense" of it at all. As it goes, matter of fact, there was not really any "Southern Ethos" until quite a bit after the American Revolution...and probably right around the "Nullification Crisis" in the 1830's. It wasn't really until then there began to develop a sense of "the South" as a truly distinct and prideful entity.
Of COURSE it is! I completely agree. I am just saying that I have some "Deep South Purists" of both friends and kin who exclude Louisiana from the South because it is west of the Mississippi River and South Carolina because it is "too Colonial".
What does one say to something like that...other than laugh a bit..I guess! At the same time, the arguments you make for Louisiana being a "true Southern state are the same that can easily be made for Texas as well. That is, in the deepest part of the geographical South, and an all-out Confederate state! No question on that score.
Now then, I HASTEN TO ADD, I am NOT in anyway, shape, or form, that you have ever advanced the notion that Texas is NOT a Southern state...because you HAVE always been clear as crystal on THAT matter! And I got-dam sure as hell appreciate it!
So, really? The ONLY issue between us is the niche of far East Texas being "Deep South" or not, correct? It is. It has all the traits of the history/culture shaped by those settlers from the "Lower South" who settled it. Good lord, people from Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana and Georgia, overwhelmingly made up the same. To boot? Their diaries/memories of the time? They recorded almost NO distinction from what they left and what they went to.
See above statements. And what is it with all this "legal" terminology?
Again, I agree. I just hope you do as well!
You are a friend and a VERY worthy opponent on this subject!
LOL, all I meant about the "legal" thing is that Louisiana was officially a part of the Confederacy. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could claim that Louisiana isn't a southern state - based on that criteria alone.
I CAN see however, that some people could say it's not a Deep South state, just as some people could say - with credibility - that East Texas is not culturally part of the Deep South. Those would be matters of opinion, not necessarily based in fact - though various facts can be used for or against just such arguments.
Interesting tombstone--I'm surprised that the information is still readable from the late 1600s!
When we were going over the old homestead in West Texas last November, I found an old obituary about my maternal great grandfather. He was not born in Texas, but a deep south state. I was shocked to the core, and I don't know why I never knew this! So now I have deep South roots on both sides of the family, and I can't deny it, either.
I'm not ashamed of them--they are what they are--but I just identify far more with my paternal side's roots. My great-whatever paternal grandfather came to Texas with the DeZavala colony sometime in the 1830's. I could apply for membership in the DRT (Daughters of the Republic of Texas), but I have never bothered to do so.
That is really cool!
I have some Texas ancestry too - a great great great grandfather who was taken prisoner in Goliad by the Mexican Army. He was finagled his way out by faking to be a doctor when he gave some "medical advice" (very questionable at that) to one of the Mexican officers who was apparently suffering from a stomach flu or food poisoning but thought he was truly dying. My ancestor's letters make it clear that he didn't know what he was talking about but figured he had nothing to lose since they were executing his comrades, so he made up some sort of medical advice which the officer followed - and he recovered within a few hours (in other words, he threw up whatever it was that was making him sick and got better, but whatever works!). So - the Mexican officer gave him a reprieve of execution, and eventually he escaped and made his way back to Louisiana.
I've never bothered to apply for membership with any of those groups either - sometimes I think I should. I could qualify for DAR, Daughters of the Confederacy, and DRT but for some reason I just drag my feet about it. Go figgur. I love history so I really ought to do it.
I have some Texas ancestry too - a great great great grandfather who was taken prisoner in Goliad by the Mexican Army. He was finagled his way out by faking to be a doctor when he gave some "medical advice" (very questionable at that) to one of the Mexican officers who was apparently suffering from a stomach flu or food poisoning but thought he was truly dying. My ancestor's letters make it clear that he didn't know what he was talking about but figured he had nothing to lose since they were executing his comrades, so he made up some sort of medical advice which the officer followed - and he recovered within a few hours (in other words, he threw up whatever it was that was making him sick and got better, but whatever works!). So - the Mexican officer gave him a reprieve of execution, and eventually he escaped and made his way back to Louisiana.
I've never bothered to apply for membership with any of those groups either - sometimes I think I should. I could qualify for DAR, Daughters of the Confederacy, and DRT but for some reason I just drag my feet about it. Go figgur. I love history so I really ought to do it.
Lots of paperwork....a real pain in the butt as far as I'm concerned, LOL!!
LOL, all I meant about the "legal" thing is that Louisiana was officially a part of the Confederacy. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could claim that Louisiana isn't a southern state - based on that criteria alone.
I CAN see however, that some people could say it's not a Deep South state, just as some people could say - with credibility - that East Texas is not culturally part of the Deep South. Those would be matters of opinion, not necessarily based in fact - though various facts can be used for or against just such arguments.
I wish to God that Texas had listened to Sam Houston and NEVER joined the Confederacy!
Texas was among the first ones out the door, too!
I wish Texas could have remained completely neutral, but there was no way--it was either the Confederacy or the Union!
I am just saying that I have some "Deep South Purists" of both friends and kin who exclude Louisiana from the South because it is west of the Mississippi River
I wish to God that Texas had listened to Sam Houston and NEVER joined the Confederacy!
Texas was among the first ones out the door, too!
I wish Texas could have remained completely neutral, but there was no way--it was either the Confederacy or the Union!
Sis? You know you and me have gone over this one before and you are correct. There is NO WAY Texas could have remained neutral at all. Any more than Mississippi could have.
And keep in mind that Houston urged neutrality ONLY until the War actually began. Otherwise, he was very much loyal to the Confederacy.
I don't know if I have shared this one or not, but these were Houston's later statements...which leave little doubt that, while he was a Southern Unionist, he was also a loyal Confederate once things got going. Here is the link:
The time has come when a man's section is his country. I stand by mine. All my hopes, my fortunes, my affections are centered in the South. When I see the land for whose defence my blood has been spilt, and the people whose fortunes have been mine through more than a quarter of a century of toil, threatened with invasion, I can but cast my lot with theirs, and await the issue. -- Gov. Sam Houston.
IMHO? That is one of the most powerful statements ever made of where a man stands when it comes down to brass tacks. He told his eldest son and namesake (who later distinguished himself as a lieutenant in CSA service) along the lines of "Son, if the state of Texas and the South demands your service or life in our decided course, then you must be faithful to that obligation....
I better stop typing here before salt water from my eyes gets all over the keyboard!
None of New Orleans looks like Houston. Neither does Metairie and other suburbs. Houston looks like Texas, respectively.
Much of suburban New Orleans does resemble parts of Houston, and even NO natives on this forum have said the same. There's enough resemblance that no one from South Louisiana could ever call Houston ugly without saying the same about their own region.
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- but neither of us can prove objectively that our position is the only correct one.
