Toll Roads example of political selfishness/corruption? (Houston, Dallas: theatre, construction)

[Dopo]

Originally Posted by TexasHorseLady

So you're proposing that we ship all goods via bicycle? Or are you proposing that all goods be shipped via railroad. All towns don't have railroads, you do realize? That really IS a thin argument, but it sure sounds like what you're talking about if you think that the roadways aren't necessary to transport the goods to you! And the comment regarding getting rid of infrastructure between buildings just doesn't make any sense at all - where are you getting that?

And you try doing without the goods that are shipped to you on the roads. Including the bicycles and bicycle tires and other parts that are used in your perfect world.

Ok, let's say we agree
most toll roads are either loops around a big city or a highway that connects a rich suburb with downtown = Only used by commuters in big cities

What does that have to do with shipping goods?
Truckers don't drive on the toll roads, they drive on the tax paid free roads
I don't see any tolls on I-35 or I-10

[wxf848]

The purpose of taxation is for the "general welfare." That means stuff that's for the good of everyone. Taxes for roads and schools and fire protection benefit everyone, even those who don't drive, don't have children, and never have a fire. Everyone chips in, and it's there when you need it. Even if you don't need it, you benefit from goods being shipped along roads, from living in a society with educated people, and from having people who can keep a fire down the block from spreading to your house.

That said, roads already have a "user pays" element, in the form of fuel taxes. Even if you don't drive, you pay the taxes incurred by truckers delivering the goods you buy as a part of the price of those goods. Roads are less "general welfare" and more "user pays" than some other forms of public good. If the level of revenue is too low to support the need, it's because of political cowardice. Politicians authorize toll roads as a way to get roads built but not be blamed for the cost.

Toll roads are actually more detached from the "user pays" philosophy. If I drive on a toll road, I still pay fuel taxes, but that tax money goes to pay for a road someone else is using. And many of the toll roads are overpriced in order to raise extra money to transfer elsewhere, so I pay for the road I'm using, the tax money goes to a road someone else is using, and then pay extra in tolls to pay for more roads for other people. A fuel tax or mileage tax is more equitable than the disproportionate burdening of toll payers.

Lastly, if I drive the full length of the Dallas North Tollway, in my small efficient car it costs less than 30 cents in fuel taxes, about a penny per mile. It costs, however, $4.62 in tolls, 15.3 cents per mile. If toll roads cost 15 times as much, I have to think they can't possibly be the best way to solve the funding problem. We could double the fuel tax and flood the DOTs with money, and still pay one-seventh of what toll roads cost.

[TheOverdog]

It costs, however, $4.62 in tolls, 15.3 cents per mile.

This is probably pretty close to the actual cost of building and maintaining a road. Sure, there is probably some overhead for profit, and for administering the 'tolling' function, but $4 is probably about right. That's why roads are cratering everywhere (that wealthy people don't live). They are incredibly expensive to build and maintain.

TexasHorseLady

And horselady, you are like arguing with a wall. But I'll make it simpler. You said we need roads to ship goods, and I said we don't need 4 lane roads everywhere in order to ship goods. Sure we need roads, but we need much less. Our roads are not primarily used to ship goods. They are primarily used to ship people at a cheap individual cost to each carload of users.. Remember when railroad lines used to run through all the small towns? What happened to all of those?

[wxf848]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

This is probably pretty close to the actual cost of building and maintaining a road. Sure, there is probably some overhead for profit, and for administering the 'tolling' function, but $4 is probably about right. That's why roads are cratering everywhere (that wealthy people don't live). They are incredibly expensive to build and maintain.

I have to disagree that roads are "cratering everywhere." I see roads in good condition all over Texas, and the vast majority of the mileage has no congestion problems. I can't disagree with your assessment of the cost of roads, because I don't know what they cost, but I seriously doubt they cost $4 for every 30-mile trip by every driver, plus who knows how much more for trucks.

I'm not opposed to charging drivers the cost of providing the service, in fact, that's exactly what I'm advocating. What I oppose is charging some drivers vastly more than others for the same service just because of their geographical misfortune. I'm sure that in the modern age we can figure out what roads cost and find a form of taxation, on fuel, mileage, or something, that imposes the costs on drivers in a manner proportional to their use of the service. Toll roads don't do that. Toll roads charge some drivers thousands of dollars per year so that other drivers can save fifty dollars per year.

[gabetx]

I have no feelings on the subject... There are no toll roads in south Texas :P

Although, there are talks about tolling the new Harbor Bridge when built.

[augiedogie]

OP: You pay for roads either in taxes or tolls. If you don't like riding toll roads, don't. No one forces you to. You sound like a lot of people these days. They want things, but they want other people to pay for them. If you ride the toll roads then you should pay for them.

[High_Plains_Retired]

Originally Posted by gabetx

I have no feelings on the subject... There are no toll roads in south Texas

None here on the South Plains either but I do have feelings on the subject. If you use it, you pay for it. If you don't like toll roads, don't use them.

[Newbe10]

EN

Originally Posted by Prairieparson

OP: You pay for roads either in taxes or tolls. If you don't like riding toll roads, don't. No one forces you to. You sound like a lot of people these days. They want things, but they want other people to pay for them. If you ride the toll roads then you should pay for them.

Oh please. You live in Lubbock where there are no toll roads, so you really don't have anyplace to comment on here. You sound just like the guy off of tollroadnews.com. If it was up to people like you and him, every freeway would be converted into a toll road and all new highways would be tolled.

Bottom line is that toll roads today (especially in TX and OK) are nothing but a scam. The toll road authorities are crooked and given way too much power by the state legislators. Some people need to get off their high horses and support a gas tax increase or another way to help fund road improvements/new roads. Better yet, push the state government to stop taking money from the highway funds to use in other areas.

Finally, not me or anyone else should have to pay to drive on a major roadway/artery route. Also, the toll roads in DFW are just as congested as the free routes. I am not going to pay a toll to set in a traffic jam or deal with stop and go traffic.The only toll roads that should be kept are, like others have said on here are ones that are near and parallel to major "free" routes.

It is pretty sad when an area like Collin County TX (population 800,000 and still one of the fastest growing counties in the country) has the population that it does and only has ONE free highway (U.S. 75).

Instead of building more toll roads, use a chunk of toll revenues from existing routes like DNT (parallel to hwy 75) to help supplement state and federal funding for new "free" routes. It's not that complicated.

[Newbe10]

oh just to let some of you toll supporters who live in the plains nowhere near Dallas; unlike you guys, i have experience in dealing with the toll roads since every major highway in the area of N Dallas where I live is a toll.

I don't care what you guys think; you don't live here. I will do what I can to help lobby the new governor of tx (once toll happy Perry is out) to change the policies regarding toll roads in the state.

[Newbe10]

Originally Posted by High_Plains_Retired

None here on the South Plains either but I do have feelings on the subject. If you use it, you pay for it. If you don't like toll roads, don't use them.

"If you use it, you pay for it." Nice logic buddy (sarcasm). For one, me and everyone else in this great country already pay to use roads in the form of a gasoline tax. Tolls in top of that tax are a "double tax" which none of us should have to pay.

Like the poster before you, you don't live in an area where toll roads exist. I do, so your opinion on the subject means nothing to me.

Toll roads are a travesty; especially in this day and age. No one should have to pay to drive on a major route (i.e. one that serves a large area like most of the toll routes in TX do).