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The difference is that your ancestors were never PROPERTY.
I just won't stick around for any sugarcoating of the tragic events that southern leaders of the past allowed. So I'll just agree to disagree and be on my way.
That is fine, and we can agree to disagree and still stay allies on certain topics. But how in the world do you figure my ancestors were not property at one time, too? I am sure you know about indentured servants, and before that, that white people in some parts of the world were slaves too. In fact, without looking it up, I remember reading once that the term "slavery" itself came from that the Slavic group were in bondage.
Also, were any of your ancestors slave owners? There were black slave-owners, you know. Here are a couple of articles and facts that kids will never hear in public schools:
Nairobi? I don't dismiss your thoughts on the subject. Maybe if I were a black man (or woman), I would feel the same way. At the same, I refuse to wallow in guilt over something that my ancestors (and yours too for that matter), did.
Slavery is over, and it aint coming back. So lets all move on. The South today is the most integrated region of the country and race-relations are better than anywhere else. Let's keep it that way...
Please. If you want to hear an ethnocentric statement, look at yours. You are correct on a few levels. But most serious historians do not give much credibility to that Afro-centric nonsense when taken out of application. The blunt fact is sub-Saharan Africa was pretty much a stone-age culture at the time other Africans sold some others into slavery. The worst consistent human rights violations in history were in that part of Africa. Hell, slavery still exists there.
I'm going to have to get some work done soon, myself, LOL.
But a couple of things.
Number one.
What part of the world at that time wasn't underdeveloped in some way? Heck, even as late as the 19th Century some European cities were still filthy and disgusting. I'm sure you've heard of the Great Stink in London. I'm not into re-writing history to serve my purpose. Africa wasn't and never has been perfect. But to act like nothing of note was accomplished in this world until Europeans came along is inaccurate.
I understand you're frustrated of self-righteous northerners south-bashing. But as far as I know there hasn't been a single northerner post in this thread. That's why I'm not sure where the frustration comes from in this thread.
Just like you're tired of hearing northerners say that all southern whites have ever done is lynch blacks and cook grits. We're tired of hearing that all black want is a handout and to play the race card. Nobody here wants you to take blame for anything that happened in the past.
This whole pleasant little chat about race started when I asked you why you think Obama destroys notions of American freedom. The main thing that irritated me about that is the fact that you took Obama to task for that because you disagree with some of his politics, but ignore the fact that many conservatives have been guilty of "destroying notions of freedom" as well.
You're a good guy, Reb. I just don't think you're the point I'm trying to make. I'm not trying to blame anyone.
Think about it for a second. Blacks were enslaved for 300, then legally segregated for another 100 years, yet everybody expects the negative effects of that are just going to magically go away in 40 years?
Ok. But why have other groups managed to do it? What do you want, anyway? Just continual guilt and scab picking?
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I don't think any black person in their right mind wants to be reliant or dependent. Malcolm X himself preached self-reliance. So I think you're right, we should be self-reliant. But historically, whenever there is a black coalition that is commited to that, white America instantly yells "reverse-racism" and blacklists them (The original Black Panther Party for Self Defense). So you have a catch-22.
No, you have a Catch--22. Do you deny the existence of reverse-racism? Why should my kids and grandkids pay a price for something they had nothing to do with? Also? I know many black scholars, such as as Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and Shelby Steele, I would love to see run for office. I would vote for them in a heartbeat!
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But my main problem comes from when people tend to act like there should be no lingering effects from those centuries of marginalization. I also feel that many caucasians take a great deal for granted. It may not seem like much, but just the psychological effects of growing up black vs. growing up white in this country mean a whole lot. Can you imagine growing up and the only portrayals you have seen of caucasians on TV were negative and stereotypical? What about never really seeing a caucasian doctor, lawyer, or business owner? That's the way many African-Americans have had to grow up. Many caucasians can go weeks without ever really thinking about race. Historically, African-Americans are always in situations where they think about race.
As I said in an earlier post, if I were a black man I might feel the same way. But I can't do anything to change it and your cause is not mine. You and other black people are the ONLY ones who can do anything about it all. And if you can't? Then I don't think we "white people" are to blame for it. I sure as hell won't take it (blame).
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not condemning you or any other caucasians who for the most part are nice, hardworking citizens. I'm just filling you in on a lot of truths about growing up African-American that a lot of people just wouldn't understand.
I know you are not condemming anyone. But you know something else? I have worked going on 15 years teaching special needs kids, and most of them were African-American. I remember one time in particular that one student, a tough kid who is now in prison, cried on my shoulder because I was the only one who remembered his birthday (I brought in a little cake and all). I remember another, on graduation day, came up and hugged me and well....I get a little misty-eyed with all this
So no, I dont know the black experience, but the message I always extended to my students was that only they could change their lives. I think they all liked and respected me, because I refused to let them feel like "it's all whitey's fault..." And many of them really did think that way...
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It's easy to say that everybody is tired of hearing about race. But how can you be tired when you've never truly had to confront it?
Because my idea of confrontation is not of your obscession. I have other fish to fry that sit around and feel guilty about things that I had nothing to do with. Now if you don't? Then that is your business. But it is not mine.
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I have an honest question, Reb. Have you ever really sat down and had a long, meaningful conversation concerning race with someone that has a different viewpoint from you? How about studied African-American history in this country as well as the scociology and psychology behind the black experience? How about being surrounded by black families for a significant amount of time and seeing the way they grow up. I'm not saying you're a bad person if you haven't done these things. But if you haven't I don't think you have the right to say you're "tired" of this discussion or to make the generalizations that you do.
And I have an honest answer. Yes, I have. One of my very best friends is a black man and he and I are writing a book together and going into business together. He and I have discussed, for going on 10 years, every subject under the sun, including race and racial issues and past things...
Ok. But why have other groups managed to do it? What do you want, anyway? Just continual guilt and scab picking?
No, you have a Catch--22. Do you deny the existence of reverse-racism? Why should my kids and grandkids pay a price for something they had nothing to do with? Also? I know many black scholars, such as as Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, and Shelby Steele, I would love to see run for office. I would vote for them in a heartbeat!
As I said in an earlier post, if I were a black man I might feel the same way. But I can't do anything to change it and your cause is not mine. You and other black people are the ONLY ones who can do anything about it all. And if you can't? Then I don't think we "white people" are to blame for it. I sure as hell won't take it (blame).
I know you are not condemming anyone. But you know something else? I have worked going on 15 years teaching special needs kids, and most of them were African-American. I remember one time in particular that one student, a tough kid who is now in prison, cried on my shoulder because I was the only one who remembered his birthday (I brought in a little cake and all). I remember another, on graduation day, came up and hugged me and well....I get a little misty-eyed with all this
So no, I dont know the black experience, but the message I always extended to my students was that only they could change their lives. I think they all liked and respected me, because I refused to let them feel like "it's all whitey's fault..." And many of them really did think that way...
Because my idea of confrontation is not of your obscession. I have other fish to fry that sit around and feel guilty about things that I had nothing to do with. Now if you don't? Then that is your business. But it is not mine.
And I have an honest answer. Yes, I have. One of my very best friends is a black man and he and I are writing a book together and going into business together. He and I have discussed, for going on 10 years, every subject under the sun, including race and racial issues and past things...
Does that answer it?
What other groups are you talking about? African-Americans are far from the only racial group that have problems today.
And does that friend have a different viewpoint than you? Or do you guys pretty much agree?
Number one: No caucasian should have to feel guilty about things that happened years ago if they didn't do it themselves.
Number two: No, your children and grandchildren should not have to suffer for the deeds of caucasians past. Plus I hate the term reverse-racism. Racism is racism no matter who does it.
Number three: All I'm saying is that white people today should not simply write off the black perspective on things and should attempt to see things from a different point of view, even if in the end, they still find they don't agree with it.
Number four: Those black scholars simply parrot what many conservative white politicians already feel, but you have to admit, they don't represent the majority of how African-Americans feel and by reading them you're not getting any new insight. You're basically just getting how you think all blacks should feel. That's just like me saying Tim Wise represents conservative whites, when he doesn't.
The main mistake I think you're making is assuming that I want you to feel guilty or think you should, no I don't.
Also, just because someone doesn't agree with all of your assesments on race doesn't mean I think "it's all whitey's fault". That's a strawman argument. All I have argued is that there are some different viewpoints.
I see merit in many different trains of thought. But so far, you've shown that if it's not the conservative white viewpoint (whether it's being given by a person of color or a white person) then there is no merit to it.
Last edited by UTHORNS96; 02-15-2013 at 09:34 AM..
I am sorry, UTH, but some of the contents below are exactly what I am talking about...
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Originally Posted by UTHORNS96
What other groups are you talking about? African-Americans are far from the only racial group that have problems today.
Yes, this is true. But can you really deny that it seems to be most predominent in the black community, and especially among young black males? I dont like this fact at all, it is nothing I take any gleeful pride in pointing out. But it is true. Just the same that the biggest drug lords and serial killers are likely to be white.
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And does that friend have a different viewpoint than you? Or do you guys pretty much agree?
That is a good question, so I can only answer it in terms of the working title of our book (Both Sides of the Tracks). We agree on lots of things, but disagree on others. I think the most noteable is governments role in education...
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Number one: No caucasian should have to feel guilty about things that happened years ago if they didn't do it themselves.
Then we agree on that one!
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Number two: No, your children and grandchildren should not have to suffer for the deeds of caucasians past. Plus I hate the term reverse-racism. Racism is racism no matter who does it.
Anymore than your should for over the "historical crimes" of your own African ancestors. And yes, I agree that "racism is racism"...but I have a real problem with that IMHO, the whole term is meaningless. Racism can mean anything from hating someone for the color of their skin alone, to simply believing that forced busing and quota-systems are wrong. That is the problem. It is hard to defend oneself against a charge of "racism" when it had no definition of its own, other than what the accuser wants it to mean!
But anyway, what else would you call a system -- other than reverse-racism -- that punishes innocent kids for what happened a century ago simply because they are white and some arbitrary body decides that there needs to be some mathematical "diversity", regardless of actual talent...and sometime even that the segment needing hiring do not even exist?
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Number three: All I'm saying is that white people today should not simply write off the black perspective on things and should attempt to see things from a different point of view, even if in the end, they still find they don't agree with it.
No one is writing anything off, UTH. All of us who (as you obviously do) love the study of history must hear different viewpoints. I mean, hells bells, I have grown up hearing my Confederate/Southern ancestors being vilified as nothing more than traitors and slave-owners, and lynchers, by a bunch of self-righteous yankees who think their...welllll, you know what...dont smell very good! (pardon the inelgance, ladies). And that is one reason why I get so worked up about and committed early on to shining the light on their ugly a$$es. LOL
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Number four: Those black scholars simply parrot what many conservative white politicians already feel, but you have to admit, they don't represent the majority of how African-Americans feel and by reading them you're not getting any new insight. You're basically just getting how you think all blacks should feel. That's just lik me saying Tim Wise represents conservative whites, when he doesn't.
No, perhaps that you might want to take a new look at it. I dont know what those guys have said that are wrong? Do you? If so, what is it?
I think it was Shelby Steele who once asked aloud the question of, why do so many of us invest so much hope (meaning affirmative action), in some that can be revoked in a moment?
Don't you think he had a good point? What if, all of a sudden, affirmative action was repealed? What are you (not you, personally, but third person sense), going to do about it? What Steele was saying is that the black community is going to have to empower themselves, because programs such as quotas are really getting old and people are tired of them and it seems to be changing nothing....
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The main mistake I think you're making is assuming that I want you to feel guilty or think you should, no I don't.
I appreciate that, but never really thought that. Do I think there is an undertone of it? Yes, I do.
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Also, just because someone doesn't agree with all of your assesments on race doesn't mean I think "it's all whitey's fault". That's a strawman argument. All I have argued is that there are some different viewpoints.
No, it isn't a strawman argument. It is what I have heard many times before from the African-Americans I taught, and came to love and they, me. Essentially it came down to that they hated white people because they had only been exposed to the hateful garbage of a Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton who makes a living out of hate. Do you think I am bullsliting you? If you do, I promise I can put a few of them (including my friend), to write back to you on this.
I don't mean that in -- not even remotely -- a challenging way, only sharing what I have experienced in at least 12 years of my teaching career.
While a much smaller community, African immigrants who were not the descendants of American slaves generally lead much better lives than other black Americans. They're typically wealthier and more educated. This suggests that the slave trade and segregation has had some lasting negative effects, and that blacks are better off if they had not descended from it, so there isn't much sense in the argument that blacks shouldn't be that upset about slavery since we're "okay" now.
Then what are you going to do about it, Nairobi? What am I supposed to do about it? If you have a suggestion, then by all means, share it! I am serious, not being a smart-aleck!
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The north has their own faults, but, again, that doesn't make the south any less guilty. Historically, no other region in the country has been so unaccepting and inhumane to non-Christian non-whites than the South has. If you're able, let's just accept that fact without bringing up the "what about them" arguments.
And that is pure taco sauce. Can you tell me (or anyone else) anything the South did that was any different than anything the northern states did? As I have said before, our "sin" was that we were not hypocrites about it all.
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I do love the South, and I'm proud to be from here, but I feel there is an ugly part of this region that I'm not ashamed to acknowledge.
I KNOW that, Nairobi. You and I have fought on the same side of the creek quite a few times when it comes that that. Hell, when it comes to THAT aspect, you are one of those that I want watching my back!
But where we seem to part company is that while I don't mind admitting the "faults" of Texas/South, is that I want the person laying them out to present their own credentials for doing so in the first place.
Ok, fair enough with men like you and UTH, who are proud Texans and Southerners and have a definite and undeniable right to speak on the topic. And we can -- and I feel like we have -- engage in a good and honest and civil discussion about it.
BUT? When I hear from some gawdangdamed dingdong from the West Coast or Northeast talk up their stuffy noses about the South's past, as if they never had the mumps? Then I am going to tear them a new butt as best I can. Like hell I will take the pot calling the kettle black, especially in a yankee accent...
That is all I have to say for now. I think I am fixin' to have an apoplexy! And like you said too, UTA? I guess we both oughta get to work! LOL
But where we seem to part company is that while I don't mind admitting the "faults" of Texas/South, is that I want the person laying them out to present their own credentials for doing so in the first place.
Ok, fair enough with men like you and UTH, who are proud Texans and Southerners and have a definite and undeniable right to speak on the topic. And we can -- and I feel like we have -- engage in a good and honest and civil discussion about it.
BUT? When I hear from some gawdangdamed dingdong from the West Coast or Northeast talk up their stuffy noses about the South's past, as if they never had the mumps? Then I am going to tear them a new butt as best I can. Like hell I will take the pot calling the kettle black, especially in a yankee accent...
That is all I have to say for now. I think I am fixin' to have an apoplexy! And like you said too, UTA? I guess we both oughta get to work! LOL
Oh....lordy. I'm laughing so hard that my sides are hurting.....you go, TR!! But let's not have any apoplexy, OK?
That is fine, and we can agree to disagree and still stay allies on certain topics. But how in the world do you figure my ancestors were not property at one time, too? I am sure you know about indentured servants, and before that, that white people in some parts of the world were slaves too. In fact, without looking it up, I remember reading once that the term "slavery" itself came from that the Slavic group were in bondage.
Also, were any of your ancestors slave owners? There were black slave-owners, you know. Here are a couple of articles and facts that kids will never hear in public schools:
Nairobi? I don't dismiss your thoughts on the subject. Maybe if I were a black man (or woman), I would feel the same way. At the same, I refuse to wallow in guilt over something that my ancestors (and yours too for that matter), did.
Slavery is over, and it aint coming back. So lets all move on. The South today is the most integrated region of the country and race-relations are better than anywhere else. Let's keep it that way...
Economic slavery isn't over.
Cultural slavery isn't over.
Economic slavery isn't over.
Cultural slavery isn't over.
Keep dreaming.
Obviously he lives in a bubble, so let's leave it at that.
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that my sides 
are hurting.....you go, TR!! 
