Infrastructure - Austin vs. Houston vs. Dallas vs. San Antonio (Plano: transplants, house)

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by KerrTown

How far of a walk is the State Farm Campus from the DART station? About 0.5-1 mile? That's a pretty long walk for a transit rider, especially in Texas summers.

It turns out that the IH-635 bypass (not a loop--it's missing on the Western side) is the no-go line for transplanted companies and employees. Everyone seems to center in on Legacy, not Downtown Dallas, when they move to North Texas. It's more likely that Colin County residents take major thoroughfares (E-W) to commute to work rather than the freeway (N-S).



You forgot about Uptown Houston. The shopping centers around the Galleria produce considerable trade, especially with foreign tourists. Gallery Furniture upscaled its reputation by opening a store in the area (and the newest standalone store here in Fort Bend County also reflects that). There is even new greenfield development with that shopping complex anchored by the Whole Foods.

The State Farm campus (the center) is less than a half mile walk from the station. These numbers I last looked at were taken when the weather was much nicer during the Spring. Instead of having lines cross diagonally, DART should have had them run north and south (75N to 45S; 35E north to DNT north), and then have connected lines in Downtown Dallas, 635, and maybe even PGBT.

[TheOverdog]

The State Farm campus (the center) is less than a half mile walk from the station.

The State Farm campus is right outside the DART station. Like 100 feet.

However, if you build multiple twenty plus story buildings 20 miles north of downtown Dallas, how does that increase commute ridership to downtown Dallas? It's obvious it would take away riders. A small number of people that would have been working in downtown now work in State Farm, closer to their home in McKinney. There is plenty of parking so they drive.

Uptown/Downtown Dallas is actually starting to grow businesses but that is walkable local growth (the best kind), it's not yet attracting commuters from far away (the worst kind).

The uptown/downtown apartment growth (roofs follow retail & business) will grow downtown. Rail makes some travels for them slightly more convenient and it makes living car-lite or carless possible.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

The State Farm campus is right outside the DART station. Like 100 feet.

However, if you build multiple twenty plus story buildings 20 miles north of downtown Dallas, how does that increase commute ridership to downtown Dallas? It's obvious it would take away riders. A small number of people that would have been working in downtown now work in State Farm, closer to their home in McKinney. There is plenty of parking so they drive.

Uptown/Downtown Dallas is actually starting to grow businesses but that is walkable local growth (the best kind), it's not yet attracting commuters from far away (the worst kind).

The uptown/downtown apartment growth (roofs follow retail & business) will grow downtown. Rail makes some travels for them slightly more convenient and it makes living car-lite or carless possible.

Not sure where the bolded is coming from since I wasn't talking about commuters to Downtown Dallas increasing. I don't know why adding hundreds/thousands of jobs right next to a rail station decreases ridership at that station. It doesn't make sense. The whole point of putting it there was to increase ridership and grow as a TOD. The opposite happened.

[TheOverdog]

It doesn't make sense.

Of course it makes sense. Transit only increases ridership if driving is harder and transit is easier. Transit is not magic.

BTW, TOD is a long-term play so looking at the ridership of brand new buildings which make driving and transit both easier is possibly a too short term view.

A TOD 2 stops from the end of the transit line is not going to drive appreciable ridership, especially if it only exists as an island of density.

[DabOnEm]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

Of course it makes sense. Transit only increases ridership if driving is harder and transit is easier. Transit is not magic.

BTW, TOD is a long-term play so looking at the ridership of brand new buildings which make driving and transit both easier is possibly a too short term view.

A TOD 2 stops from the end of the transit line is not going to drive appreciable ridership, especially if it only exists as an island of density.

You're acting like the station is brand new though. It has been there for over a decade, yet riders left when more jobs opened up near it. I would think workers living "car-lite" in Uptown/downtown Dallas would ride it there, or those in McKinney drive into Plano and take it in to avoid the worst of 75 traffic. Instead they drive. I guess to show off the new whips. So did DART botch the system layout?

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

You're acting like the station is brand new though. It has been there for over a decade, yet riders left when more jobs opened up near it. I would think workers living "car-lite" in Uptown/downtown Dallas would ride it there, or those in McKinney drive into Plano and take it in to avoid the worst of 75 traffic. Instead they drive. I guess to show off the new whips. So did DART botch the system layout?

I don't think it is government' s job to dictate the people's culture. For heaven's sake, the majority of jobs in Texas are tied to people driving cars. Any change is going to happen slow. I, for one, don't want to drive a car everyday to work. I don't want to give that privilege up however. What people in North Texas have shown is that they are willing to address the problem. An excellent infrastructure of mass transit is now in place to allow for a spontaneous and slow change. Figure a case of white flight will never happen again which was a leading factor in the scrapping of the last infrastructure of mass transit in North Texas.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by DabOnEm

Not sure where the bolded is coming from since I wasn't talking about commuters to Downtown Dallas increasing. I don't know why adding hundreds/thousands of jobs right next to a rail station decreases ridership at that station. It doesn't make sense. The whole point of putting it there was to increase ridership and grow as a TOD. The opposite happened.

Government will attempt to guess at what people will do. If they end up flowing in another direction, their behavior shouln't be deemed bad. Rather, the thinking of government missed the mark. Or am I just mad? I think it is funny that officials in government will want to dictate change, when they are always the last to change.
I think we are all in denial as the common denominator for all corruption today is the equality based education systems established within the inner cities. People can't seem to see today even though they are in the light and have their eyes open.
It would all be funny if it weren't so tragic. We are debating the infrastructures of Dallas, Houston, San Antonio, and Austin. Have you ever asked yourselves why any sane person would desire to live in such places?

[TheOverdog]

I would think workers living "car-lite" in Uptown/downtown Dallas would ride it there, or those in McKinney drive into Plano and take it in to avoid the worst of 75 traffic.

No, people who live car line in downtown work in downtown or Uptown, very few in Plano. People in McKinney do take it downtown (the farther north parking lots have recently been expanded) but now they can work in State Farm, and can drive there and avoid going all the way to downtown or they can park in a lot farther north and catch the train. The ridership decrease is not dramatic, it's marginal. There is also no reason for anyone downtown to ride up to Plano (minus local friends or something) because all the things available in Plano are also available in uptown/downtown Dallas.

Also, the ridership growth over the past 2 years overall among all northern stations have been minor increases in weekday ridership, not declines.

Have you ever asked yourselves why any sane person would desire to live in such places?

No because the answer is not interesting globally. People live where they live because of momentum, because family, and a million other reasons. They fight when you force them to move somewhere better - see the place in south Dallas that doesn't even have potable water, but the people living there like it.

[Yellow pool of piddle]

Originally Posted by TheOverdog

No, people who live car line in downtown work in downtown or Uptown, very few in Plano. People in McKinney do take it downtown (the farther north parking lots have recently been expanded) but now they can work in State Farm, and can drive there and avoid going all the way to downtown or they can park in a lot farther north and catch the train. The ridership decrease is not dramatic, it's marginal. There is also no reason for anyone downtown to ride up to Plano (minus local friends or something) because all the things available in Plano are also available in uptown/downtown Dallas.

Also, the ridership growth over the past 2 years overall among all northern stations have been minor increases in weekday ridership, not declines.

No because the answer is not interesting globally. People live where they live because of momentum, because family, and a million other reasons. They fight when you force them to move somewhere better - see the place in south Dallas that doesn't even have potable water, but the people living there like it.

I see the city of Dallas as the primary rotten core poisoning the North Texas region. The cities of Plano and Richardson, with their superior school districts, are able to attract companies to the area without having to bribe them with hard earned tax payer money. In the Houston area, the same is true of Katy. Why enable this inner city corruption by living in the cities that sponsor it?

[turf3]

If DART really wanted train ridership to D/FW Airport, they would have put a big train station at Valley View Mall (plenty of parking) and run the line right down the middle of LBJ. But they didn't, and now that LBJ is almost fully completed in its new ultra giant configuration, it won't happen.

A secondary one would probably be parking at the former Texas Stadium location, running the train down the middle of 183. This one could still be done.

I have taken the train from DFW airport to Mockingbird Station. It is a huge PITA and involves a bus ride from DFW airport to the DFW station that is weirdly located not in the airport but in an office park a couple miles away; waiting around the (outdoor, thus either flaming hot or freezing cold) DFW train station for an hour; then making a train transfer downtown in a part of town I wouldn't recommend a woman be in after dark.

I think DART totally screwed the pooch on airport travel. They should have done this first, rather than the subway from Mockingbird Lane to downtown. Business travelers would ABSOLUTELY pay $40 or $50 a round trip ticket to go to the airport on a train, and leave the car at VV Mall. Why did they shut down the buses that used to go from Valley View to the airport (what was it called? "Surtran" I think?)