Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
awkward and homogenous go hand in hand right.. It is those people who don't feel awkward and are flamboyant, eccentric etc that adds flavour to a place.
Again, skylines have nothing to do with urbanity and streetlife. Toronto can build condo towers from here to Oshawa, it isn't going to make the city have a more vibrant streetlife. If anything, the condo boxes are a net negative for streetlife.
And Toronto would need decades of sustained strong growth and decades of relative stagnation for Chicago for the two cities to be a relative match at street level pedestrian feel. They will never have a similar feel in terms of quality of the built environment though, not even in 100 years, because Toronto was a relatively small city in the pre-war, pre-auto city building era. There is almost no grandeur to the streetscape. Even a Cleveland or Detroit has much more street level grandeur, since they were much bigger cities back then, though Toronto is obviously a much better city now.
Well again - you didn't seem to answer my question about whether you have been extensively through Old T.O as opposed to just the DT core of it.. Where in Toronto have you actually been to and more specifically in Old Toronto.. Old Toronto is 750K people in a small area by Can/U.S standards but it is still A lot more than the DT core and quite frankly - I honestly don't think you have been extensively through it because you just don't give specifics - just tired generalities on it.. I've been through Cleveland and Detroit and quite frankly there is nothing about either of those cities that is more urban than T.O regardless of your definition of urbanity! Condo's are about people ultimately and people will contribute to urbanity. Is it the best form of urbanity on its own - well no but its also how you do it.. The new Condo's in Toronto's core are doing a better job of bringing street level urbanity to the city but more importantly they are bringing lots of people to the place and that speaks for a lot.
Since T.O is becoming more dense than Chicago in practically ever measure - I don't think it'll take decades as you say.. Just because a city has more pre-WW2 development alone doesn't make it more urban either. Especially if there are swaths of that pre-WW2 development that are run down and sparsely populated.. Drive all the way down Michigan Ave in Detroit and as much as I see LOADS of street level urban potential that would Give Yonge, Bloor, Queen, King College, Dundas Sts in T.O a run for their money (In Toronto it would be an AMAZING street full of urbanity and vitality), most of it is boarded up and in shambles - a complete WASTE.. Nothing in Toronto resembles that - nothing!. Chicago isn't as bad obviously but you can't ignore the fact that many parts of its pre-WW2 development isn't living up to the potential of attracting good street level pedestrian vitality - large parts are but large parts simply aren't. If it lived up to its potential through and through I would agree with you - but can you honestly say that as impressive as Chicago's urban stock is - is it all living to its potential? I think you and I both know the answer to that. So instead of playing what if how about we play what is..
As for Skylines - I agree with you that they don't make a city but I think Atticman was correct in saying that if you want to experience the whole package 'big' city feel in Canada the U.S - outside of NYC - Toronto and Chicago - maybe L.A are the cities that seem to nicely check off those boxes.. Right now I give it to Chicago over T.O but its changing rapidly. 10 years ago it would have been unheard of to say that but now not so much. This is why I say another 10 years and T.O imo is going to be pretty incredible and it'll be increasingly difficult for even people like you to dismiss that if they actually look at what is happening and where things are going and not stuck in the 1940's and before - times when cities like Cleveland and Detroit were more vibrant than Toronto but this is 2014 and were moving toward 2024 not 1934
I haven't been to Toronto but the city seems very generic north American...
Well it is in N.A and there are certainly generic aspects of it like most any city in a region.. Having said that there is a whole lot more to it as well.. Better to actually visit and become familiar and perhaps the word 'seem' might change a bit to cover areas of it that aren't so generic. The same could be said for many many cities around the world really where there is more than meets the regional eye.
suburban, skyscrapers in the city center, most life revolves around shopping malls (I liked montreal better)
Most areas of Old Toronto are certainly not suburban. As a matter of fact there is a huge push in these areas to NOT become suburban as in the recent successful opposition to a big Walmart being constructed near Kensington Market - the community successfully banded together to squash that and it is very difficult to find many big box stores in Old T.O. North York, Scarborough and Etobicoke yes are very suburban but Old T.O isn't - far from it.. I'd ask anyone to claim that Bloor, Queen, King, College, Dundas west of the DT core are suburdan lol - they go for miles and miles and are urban stretches. Preferring Montreal is of course fair as we all have preferences but anyone familiar with all of Toronto wouldn't just equate it with DT skyscrapers and suburbia and ignore a huge part of the nabe's with its heart and soul which is Old Toronto.. These are the places that anyone who visits T.O should go to.. I would say to anyone who wants to get a good feel for T.O to travel immediately west of the DT core along the streets I mentioned. Greektown east of Broadview on Danforth shouldn't be missed either - neither should the distillery district which is also east of the core.. T.O also has the most impressive museums and theatre scene in the country. For my gay friends from abroad - if you haven't been to Buddies in Bad Times theatre check it out - for straights who want a more local English Canadian theatre option go to the Tarragon theatre and of course you have loads of 'generic' broadway type shows as well.
Well it is in N.A and there are certainly generic aspects of it like most any city in a region.. Having said that there is a whole lot more to it as well.. Better to actually visit and become familiar and perhaps the word 'seem' might change a bit to cover areas of it that aren't so generic. The same could be said for many many cities around the world really where there is more than meets the regional eye.
Am I right to say that most of the uniqueness of Toronto would be outside downtown? But more in the inner city areas immediately outside downtown?
I just read this whole thread and first of all I'm dumbfounded that someone actually said Toronto is expensive compared to Manhattan. Like... what planet are you living on?!
I have said this before, but Toronto is unique and very different depending on where in the city you are. It's a patchwork city - there's a reason people call it a city of neighborhoods. There is a lot of Chicago in Toronto, but there definitely are also shades of New York, Philadelphia, Minneapolis, and Seattle.
It is not unreasonable to compare Toronto to New York, given Toronto's incredible diversity and its significance to Canada.
It is not unreasonable to compare Toronto to Minneapolis or Seattle, given the attitudes and cultures that govern all three cities. Minneapolis and Seattle are more similar to Montreal than to Toronto, but there are CERTAINLY elements of both in common with Toronto. Kensington Market is a neighborhood that would not feel out of place in Seattle; likewise, St. Lawrence and the Annex (and to a lesser extent Queen West), are neighborhoods that would be at home in Minneapolis.
Am I right to say that most of the uniqueness of Toronto would be outside downtown? But more in the inner city areas immediately outside downtown?
On google maps () Toronto seems very dense.
Well even within the DT core you have some unique architectural elements and styles.. It isn't common outside of Canada anyway for any area as close to its DT core to have the neogothic architecture of the U of T.. Even our Museum institutions have unique styles like the ROM (fusion of old and new) and the AGO. Will Alsop's OCAD is not something I've ever seen outside Toronto.. Same thing with Rivell's City Hall design and Nathan Phillips Square. Love it or hate it the CN Tower is pretty unique on its own right so credit should be given where due. Even straddling the DT core and within you get a lot of Victorian architecture with its own T.O spin known as the bay and gable.. This type of Victorian is common throughout old Toronto and you also have Edwardian styles that are probably not so common in N.A - so yes i'd say outside of Old Toronto and in the outer burbs is where Toronto becomes more non-descript with suburban housing, large malls and power centres and the car is king - massive highways and the like but this is just a sign of the times when T.O grew in the burbs. Fortunately in the last decade Old Toronto and the DT core has seen a big resurgence in population growth .. Also, Our streetcar (trolley) network is very extensive and not common in N.A.. S.F has their trolleys but they aren't nearly as extensive and not the people movers like T.O's system is. If you include it in the LRT category - it is the busiest in N.A. So - yeah if you walk around Old Toronto and even in the DT core (other than just common skyline pics) but walking on the ground - I don't think you'd mistaken yourself for being anywhere else.
What you will find in T.O in general - Is that it is a more highrise city than most any other N.A city save for NYC. With over 2500 highrise buildings in just the city proper it is the second most highrise city in N.A and the 10th in the world.. My partner and I recently had a friend over from London and when he looked at the city from our 21st story balcony the first thing he said was wow a city in the forest - underscoring that T.O has all these highrises dotting its landscape within impressive tree and green canopy coverage.
Here is an article from an American City Planner on what he found about Toronto and he called its 'messy urbanism' - note that he is only talking about Old Toronto in his article.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
) Toronto seems very dense.
