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LMAO, nice research, Cart! Well, for one thing, we're talking about cities, not countries. Also, that Economist study is from 2005 (US wasn't ranked much higher than Canada in that study, by the way). The second link gives me a 404 error...what the heck is Sodahead, anyway?
Anyway...enough digressing.
Its amazing what crap you can come up with messing around with google for 30 seconds
Well, my point was not the prove that the US has a higher Quality of Life than Canada, it was to prove how stupid and subjective those lists are (Im willing to bet without looking that the Mercer list probably had Canada ranked above the US in 05) You can measure cost of living with hard numbers, Quality of Life not so much.
Back to the topic and what I mentioned in an earlier post that peoples view of Toronto whether positive or negative should be respected. A special city to me is one that I can connect with on so many levels, like when Im walking through Barri Gotic in Barcelona at night and getting lost in all the hidden alleys and admiring the gothic architecture or when I wake up from my apartment in Istanbul and have my morning coffee and look out and see the Blue Mosque, the view still gives me chills. There are countless other cities that I connect with in a way I have never Toronto, because the charm is just not there for some reason.
I think that is the point everyone is trying to make, you may get that feeling in Toronto but many other people do not and that is no reason for anyone to get defensive.
Its amazing what crap you can come up with messing around with google for 30 seconds
Well, my point was not the prove that the US has a higher Quality of Life than Canada, it was to prove how stupid and subjective those lists are (Im willing to bet without looking that the Mercer list probably had Canada ranked above the US in 05) You can measure cost of living with hard numbers, Quality of Life not so much.
Back to the topic and what I mentioned in an earlier post that peoples view of Toronto whether positive or negative should be respected. A special city to me is one that I can connect with on so many levels, like when Im walking through Barri Gotic in Barcelona at night and getting lost in all the hidden alleys and admiring the gothic architecture or when I wake up from my apartment in Istanbul and have my morning coffee and look out and see the Blue Mosque, the view still gives me chills. There are countless other cities that I connect with in a way I have never Toronto, because the charm is just not there for some reason.
I think that is the point everyone is trying to make, you may get that feeling in Toronto but many other people do not and that is no reason for anyone to get defensive.
That may have been the point you were trying to make, however most others were simply arguing that Toronto was an uninteresting and crappy city, even going as far as calling it Detroit. I happen to really love Toronto, and I totally respect the fact that you don't. It just grinds my gears when people say that Toronto is mediocre and sub par to American cities as if it were an indisputable fact.
And its just a stroke of the ego for Torontonians to be considered along side of New York isn't it?
Why is it that Torontonians can say their city is amazing, every other city sucks.. Especially Vancouver, but yet no one is able to say anything bad about Toronto? I live in Toronto. So does Kkgg and so do several others that have agreed with our posts. Its not like we are outsiders trashing a city that we have never lived or even visited. We have the right to discuss the pros and cons of our city.
Seriously, the thread is about how extremely ghetto and run down Toronto looks. If you cant agree, your blind. Walk down Dundas East tomorrow. Then Queen west. Then Sherbourne. Then Dundas West. Then King West. Then Eglinton. Then walk all over the East end. Heck, walk down all the main streets. Tell me if you notice a trend. The trend is that the city is absolutely run down in many areas.
When I first moved here, I was just to blinded by some parts of it because I am from a smaller city. Like I said in a previous post, once you live here for about a year (this gives enough time for some serious exploring) you really start to see the true city. If Toronto were to quit focusing on trying to be, as they say, "second best in North America", and started focusing on fixing up some of the dump areas all over, maybe it would be a world class city.
And what defines a 'livable city'. It must be the crime factor. Just because Toronto has less crime than other big cities, it doesn't make it livable. The cost of living is even higher than the most expensive State. Public Trans isn't even worth talking about. Driving is brutal. No Infrastructure. Its obviously run by people who haven't got a clue. There isn't as much opportunity as one would think. There seems to be an unbelievable amount of homeless people (And they become quite aggressive at times). Most apartments are the size of shoe boxes and many are infested with bugs. Don't even think about real estate unless your loaded. The streets stink at night. The lake is beyond polluted. Cant really do anything on a budget. Once you go to Yorkville, Chinatown, the island and the CN, you have basically done everything in Toronto.
Should this be deserving of a high rank on the livable scale?
And its just a stroke of the ego for Torontonians to be considered along side of New York isn't it?
Why is it that Torontonians can say their city is amazing, every other city sucks.. Especially Vancouver, but yet no one is able to say anything bad about Toronto? I live in Toronto. So does Kkgg and so do several others that have agreed with our posts. Its not like we are outsiders trashing a city that we have never lived or even visited. We have the right to discuss the pros and cons of our city.
Seriously, the thread is about how extremely ghetto and run down Toronto looks. If you cant agree, your blind. Walk down Dundas East tomorrow. Then Queen west. Then Sherbourne. Then Dundas West. Then King West. Then Eglinton. Then walk all over the East end. Heck, walk down all the main streets. Tell me if you notice a trend. The trend is that the city is absolutely run down in many areas.
When I first moved here, I was just to blinded by some parts of it because I am from a smaller city. Like I said in a previous post, once you live here for about a year (this gives enough time for some serious exploring) you really start to see the true city. If Toronto were to quit focusing on trying to be, as they say, "second best in North America", and started focusing on fixing up some of the dump areas all over, maybe it would be a world class city.
And what defines a 'livable city'. It must be the crime factor. Just because Toronto has less crime than other big cities, it doesn't make it livable. The cost of living is even higher than the most expensive State. Public Trans isn't even worth talking about. Driving is brutal. No Infrastructure. Its obviously run by people who haven't got a clue. There isn't as much opportunity as one would think. There seems to be an unbelievable amount of homeless people (And they become quite aggressive at times). Most apartments are the size of shoe boxes and many are infested with bugs. Don't even think about real estate unless your loaded. The streets stink at night. The lake is beyond polluted. Cant really do anything on a budget. Once you go to Yorkville, Chinatown, the island and the CN, you have basically done everything in Toronto.
Should this be deserving of a high rank on the livable scale?
Nothing wrong with pointing out some problems with Toronto. We certainly do need to improve some things, even badly in some areas, but you're grossly exaggerating a lot of this. Tell you what, why don't you and kkkg7 hook up and look into rooming together in one of those awesome American cities, so we don't have hear you guys constantly whine and troll on this board, hmmmm? Write back in 2 years and let us know how much better you're doing over there.
Toronto has always been more gritty and industrial than Chicago. Chicago has one of the most aggressive beautification programs of any city in the world.
Kkgg7 brought up a good point about differences in affluence. Chicago is one of the United States' wealthiest cities, and the surrounding metropolitan area boasts a plethora of wealthy suburbs. In Chicago you have city parks that cost hundreds of millions of dollars to construct, and most of these are built with private donations from wealthy residents and Fortune 500 corporations.
I guess I'd should expect a Winnekta boy to be a little more optimistic than I am..
Here's a fun fact: Out of the ten poorest suburbs in America, 9 of them are either suburbs of Chicago or Miami. All of the Miami suburbs on this list are majority Hispanic and all of the Chicago suburbs on this list are majority black.
There are plenty of affluent suburbs out there. I think it would make more sense to "boast" that we have some of the most ghetto suburbs in America. Even if this isn't really something to be proud of, it would be more honest.
And yeah, Chicago has aggressive beatification programs in neighborhoods Mayor Daley has deemed worthy enough. Meanwhile, large swaths of the the south and west sides of the city continue to look like garbage dumps.
I'm proud of my city but let's not get carried away. Just because you're wealthy, it doesn't mean the rest of us are..
That may have been the point you were trying to make, however most others were simply arguing that Toronto was an uninteresting and crappy city, even going as far as calling it Detroit. I happen to really love Toronto, and I totally respect the fact that you don't. It just grinds my gears when people say that Toronto is mediocre and sub par to American cities as if it were an indisputable fact.
It is completely natural to defend a city that you personally love and it would be ridiculous for anyone to attempt to convince you otherwise.
Just a quick question on the second part. Does it grind your gears in the same way when Torontonians constantly make disparaging remarks about US cities? Trust me I grew up there and the average TO'tonian would never accept that any US city could be safer, cleaner, more diverse, vibrant, etc..and in this thread they not only mentioned great cities like NYC, SF and Boston, but Detroit which as we know has its issues (for the record I do not see the resemblance between Det and TO at all)
I am wondering if the thread would have received such passionate replies if the title was "Toronto, Looks more like Elbasan" or some other European city? Not saying that you personally are like this T-Dot guy, because you seem intelligent, but you have to admit that I have a point here.
You seem to forget what the word *Identity* is. Canada has a very strong identity same with Toronto. You guys are talking about it, thinking about it, rejecting it, accepting it. .
Sorry, but Canada does not have a strong identity and neither does Toronto. If they did, much of this discussion (about the countrty's largest city lacking character, personality and uniqueness) would not be possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpartacusTheSpartan
That's part of an identity Canada was founded apon Immigrantion and multiculturalism. Don't like it? Then get out or suck it up.
No way was Canada founded upon immigration and multiculturalism. These are very recent constructs and are totally modern-day pillars of the Canadian identity.
Canada was founded upon:
1) the need to keep the northern half of North America in British hands and the Yanks at bay
2) the pressing need to keep the French and aboriginal populations of the northern half of North America safely subjugated
Toronto and Torontonians are perceived among some Canadians (and Torontonians) as arrogant and being the "New York" of Canada. "The Centre of the Universe" as some call it. I do think the arrogance exists to an extent, and for a time I hated T.O. myself, but I also find a lot to love about Toronto, personally.
Envy, violence, pollution, if all of that is Toronto, then Atlanta(the city that I live near) is alot worse. I guess part of the reason I don't have any hate towards Toronto is because I don't live in Canada(although when I was 15 or 16, I thought about living in Canada).
Its true that there isn't much that is 100% uniquely Toronto that will "wow" people. We are a relatively new metropolis largely shaped by recent immigrants. However that is exactly what Toronto has going for it. It is a patchwork of many different people and neighbourhoods unrivaled by most cities. And if you can't find anything interesting about that, well I really do feel sorry for you.
As for your second paragraph, of course Toronto can't beat NYC, the de facto capital of the world with a population more than 4x ours, in terms of stuff to do. Thats just not fair. However, LA? Unless you're into stalking Paris Hilton and driving on freeways, what so unique and amazing about it? And San Francisco? I love that city, but what about it makes you think "wow! I could never do this anywhere else!"
And FYI, I've been to Amsterdam, LA, and London in the last year alone.
San Francisco is a good case in point. It is much smaller in area than Toronto, and the city proper has a smaller population (although not the metro area), but downtown San Francisco feels more bustling and vibrant than downtown Toronto. This shouldnt be the case, considering Toronto is Canada's first city!
No, Toronto is nowhere near as run-down as Detroit. Sure, some of the infrastructure is worn down, but nowhere near Detroit's level. Plus, Toronto is a vibrant, bustling city while Detroit is the exact opposite of that...
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Well, for one thing, we're talking about cities, not countries. Also, that Economist study is from 2005 (US wasn't ranked much higher than Canada in that study, by the way). The second link gives me a 404 error...what the heck is Sodahead, anyway?
