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Does she? There has never been any indication of her feelings about motherhood. You can argue that she presents a facade but all of the characters on the show present a facade and, yet, we still see and hear how they feel about a lot of personal issues. I think that if Joan wanted a child, it would have come up or been demonstrated in some way, even if only subtly.
To me, one presentation of it was when Joan answered the mom in the waiting room.
She was asked how old her daughter was, there was this pause and then she said "Fifteen." I think she demonstrated feelings of loss from that abortion 15 years ago. Does this mean she definitely wanted to keep her current pregnancy? As I said before, yes and no.
Joan also told Roger, "We avoided a tragedy."
I really can see both sides, and don't know which one happened.
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That said, three abortions is an indication that something is prohibiting her from having children. And, as Peggy has illustrated, that only thing would be her own feelings on the issue; even in the 60's, if a woman wanted something, she could have it, albeit, perhaps, with great difficulty. The only thing that would stop her would be her own perception that she couldn't.
Yes--convention.
IMHO, no woman, in the 60's or now, ever Has It All.
There is always compromise. Something always has to give. Peggy does not have it all, and never will.
I don't have it all.
(But this is all just my opinion!)
Certainly I agree that at the very least, Joan has been ambivalent about it.
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Whatever Joan's reasons, it is difficult for me to define her as self-reliant, especially if she decided not to have a child b/c the circumstances weren't right; that makes her the exact opposite of self-reliant.
Mad Men characters are neither consistent nor easily sorted out, are they?
Joan may appear old school and vulnerable, but she relies on herself a great deal. To me, the quality of self-reliance is an inner strength--a sort of peace of mind--that consists of more than being able to financially support yourself, or snub societal norms. I think Joan has shown this quality. I'm not saying her judgment is always correct. I just think she does not lean on anyone but herself.
Was Don really a deserter though? I mean, he was legitimately injured, he just assumed a new identity afterwards in the hospital but the Army sent him home all the same.
Yes, he definitely was a deserter. His wounds were legitimate, but probably not severe enough to remove him from active duty. I can't remember this exactly, but I want to say that Lt. Draper mentioned something about being near the end of his tour of duty. Am I remembering that right? That's why Don was allowed to go home after recovering from his injuries.
To me, one presentation of it was when Joan answered the mom in the waiting room.
She was asked how old her daughter was, there was this pause and then she said "Fifteen." I think she demonstrated feelings of loss from that abortion 15 years ago. Does this mean she definitely wanted to keep her current pregnancy? As I said before, yes and no.
Joan also told Roger, "We avoided a tragedy."
I really can see both sides, and don't know which one happened.
Yes--convention.
IMHO, no woman, in the 60's or now, ever Has It All.
There is always compromise. Something always has to give. Peggy does not have it all, and never will.
I don't have it all.
(But this is all just my opinion!)
Certainly I agree that at the very least, Joan has been ambivalent about it.
Mad Men characters are neither consistent nor easily sorted out, are they?
Joan may appear old school and vulnerable, but she relies on herself a great deal. To me, the quality of self-reliance is an inner strength--a sort of peace of mind--that consists of more than being able to financially support yourself, or snub societal norms. I think Joan has shown this quality. I'm not saying her judgment is always correct. I just think she does not lean on anyone but herself.
I think it is a matter of terminology. Joan is self-reliant but she is not independent. The reason I make the distinction is b/c, IMHO, one of the points of the last ep is that Joan is alone and/or feels very much alone. I also agree that "ambivalence" would be a very accurate way of describing her feelings re: motherhood.
As far as Don understands, he has deserted. I say that to make a distinction between what is real and what Don thinks: the two may or may not be identical, which is why I think it is an excellent point/issue to be raised. As far as Don is concerned, he deserted b/c *technically speaking* Dick Whitman died and Don Draper's identity was assumed. If the gov were to find out that he assumed Don Draper's identity but that Dick Whitman was still alive, then it would be considered desertion (b/c he left as someone he wasn't). I guess if he had remained Dick Whitman, he wouldn't have been discharged?
I guess if he had remained Dick Whitman, he wouldn't have been discharged?
That's my understanding as well. Dick Whitman literally just showed up days before the shelling/accident that killed Don Draper. Even though Dick was injured, I doubt he would have been discharged based on that one incident. Which is why I think Lt. Draper was fairly close to being discharged in the first place...and why taking over his identity was appealing to Dick. As he told Betty last season, "I just had to get out of there."
I loaned out my S1 DVD so I am not able to rewatch the episode where Lt. Draper dies...but I'm pretty sure there's something mentioned about how long he's served or that he's coming up on discharge or something.
Was Don really a deserter though? I mean, he was legitimately injured, he just assumed a new identity afterwards in the hospital but the Army sent him home all the same.
Yes he was injured. The bigger issue was that he intentionally changed dogtags with Dick Whitman. Took his dogtags off when he saw he was dead and gave him his own dogtags. Not only dissertion but intentional deceipt. Not so small a sin according to Uncle Sam.
Help! We had to cancel our cable due to financial reasons and also because there was just too much trash on tv and not even any good old shows that I remember. I mean, I can't believe where they found some of the stuff that was filling up the channels -- shows I've never even heard of and they are crap to boot. Anyway, I'm suffering now because I can't watch Mad Men! Can someone tell me if there is any way to watch it on my computer???
Help! We had to cancel our cable due to financial reasons and also because there was just too much trash on tv and not even any good old shows that I remember. I mean, I can't believe where they found some of the stuff that was filling up the channels -- shows I've never even heard of and they are crap to boot. Anyway, I'm suffering now because I can't watch Mad Men! Can someone tell me if there is any way to watch it on my computer???
Help! We had to cancel our cable due to financial reasons and also because there was just too much trash on tv and not even any good old shows that I remember. I mean, I can't believe where they found some of the stuff that was filling up the channels -- shows I've never even heard of and they are crap to boot. Anyway, I'm suffering now because I can't watch Mad Men! Can someone tell me if there is any way to watch it on my computer???
I guess it was just a matter of time before Don got to know another secretary a little better.
And looks like Faye has really fallen for the Draper Charm. Is helping Don out going to cost her a good job?
Roger and his ego just couldnt get away from fibbing about his knowledge of Lucky Strike, easier to let the grapevine handle it. I thought for sure someone in the room would spot his thumb on the reciever.He has lost his coooool. He is imploding.
He couldnt even find solace in Joanies arms/bed this time. What a hang dog face he had leaving her apt.
And Peggy is diving right into the sexual revalution of the '60's.
Lots to cover in two more episodes, you know we are all just going to be left hanging.
What a deflating, depressing, bummer episode! But I suppose it was coming.
Roger, faking it with the Lucky Strike account, getting his walking papers from Joan, then sitting on the couch dazedly looking at his vanity book, Sterling's Gold. The entire situation almost looks suicidal.
Don, finally going at it with Meghan, only to go home to see Faye at his door, offering him a meeting with Heinz. Are Don and Faye on or off?
heh--Peggy and her lipstick tooth. But the Playtex guy liked her, you could tell--and she got the account.
How ironic that Pete emerges as the mature and stable personality.
I really don't consider it to be unusual (for the time) that he was running around trying to keep the firm together while his wife was in labor.
Did anyone else, during Roger's fake phone call with Lee Gardner J (the head of Lucky Strike), notice Bert kind of looking at Roger in a certain way, as if he knew Roger was not really speaking with anyone? It just seemed as though the camera was giving special notice to Bert Cooper just then.
So what will happen? Will Pete leave? I don't think he wants to.
So sad that the season is almost over!
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