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The Jones Act is a piece of protectionist legislation that is responsible for hiking the costs of many goods that go to Puerto Rico. It was started by one man, Senator Wesley Jones, who was out to have a monopoly on goods that were shipped from his home state of Washington to Alaska. It dates back to a little after World War I. Repealing it would decrease shipping costs and eliminate a lot of wasteful and unneeded government expenditures.
Because of this act, Hawaii and Puerto Rico have unnecessarily large costs for building materials, which inhibits development. It is obsolete and has been for decades. It should be repealed. However, that would require an act of Congress, so good luck on that, especially with the current one! It also does not apply to passenger ships.
I haven't lived in Puerto Rico (but will if You Know Who wins the presidency again), but can tell you that having this piece of legislation made EVERYTHING cost a lot more than it should have in Hawaii, especially home building.
Start packing. Moving to Puerto Rico because of a President is pretty silly, since you still are under U.S. jurisdiction but TDS does that to people. At least We won't be going to WW 3 anytime soon and We can try to invest some money back at home and try to control the border instead of sending billions of dollars overseas on the endless wars.
If the Jones Act is so bad for Puerto Rico, why is the purchasing power of Puerto Rico is a lot higher than the islands around them including full blown nations in Latin America. Purchasing power is how much you can buy with your money.
Puerto Rico is 65% higher than Latin countries, the interest rates is 154% higher than Latin countries than in Puerto Rico, Gasoline is 30%+ higher in Latin countries than Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico salary is 75% higher than Latin countries.
Toyota Corolla Sedan 1.6l 97kW Comfort (Or Equivalent New Car) cost 25k in Puerto Rico and 30k in Dominican Republic. That kills the myth of the Jones Act.
What island in the Caribbean you want compare Puerto Rico to? What island in the Pacific you want to compare Hawaii to?
There many factors why prices in an island are higher than the mainland but to blame it all of the Jones Act is dishonest and propaganda. The 11.5% tax rate on all goods by the local government which are progressives to borderline socialists doesn't help businesses and raises costs. That's just 1 tax, you have other regulations imposed by the local government that affects prices and what products they want to push and which ones to kill. The same with businesses. Add the corruption in their government and the expensive energy and that will also rise costs. Elections have consequences.
You haven't live in the island but I have. I can write a book about their issues and I'm not some guy from the states looking down from my computer chair. Go down there and see for yourself. Live it. I have and trust me, Trump isn't the problem since the current President hasn't done much to change the problems in Puerto Rico and they shouldn't expect it either. Most of their problems are not even federal. It's internal but that's another topic. All they do down there is change the chairs of the Titanic every 4 years. When was the last time the Puerto Rican people felt pride and have trust in their government? It's been a long time and I don't think is coming back anytime soon.
Last edited by SanJuanStar; 02-19-2024 at 12:36 AM..
To be clear, it is US airline labor the one greatly benefitted by cabotage laws, which the Jones Act extended to aviation by proxy when airplanes became commonplace to the paying public. Opening up domestic point-to-point to foreign crews and flags, would decimate US airline crew wages. Protectionist? Absolutely. People should be careful with cheerleading flags of convenience. They may feel "it works" for the proposition of boarding some flag of convenience floating hotel for 5 days, but when it comes to aviation, the stakes are a bit higher.
For disclosure, I'm biased as a US .mil pilot, and one for whom my civilian income potential is directly couched by the preservation of US anti-cabotage laws. As a native island PRican, I do not feel the Jones Act gentrified me out of my formative home. The faustian gamble of PR politicians favoring a caribbean tax cheat harbor vision for that 100x35 patch of mountainous earth, over one which favors their educated middle class (and the accompanying anti-middle class income tax tables of the island) is what kicked me out of my home. As such, I have no love lost for the political sellout class of my former home.
Lastly, in fairness to the Jones Act, the cabotage laws that protect US part 121 aviation could be passed as a stand-alone, separate from the legacy of Jones Act. Thing is, there's really no political impetus for that carve out anyways, given the status quo covers the bases.
To be clear, it is US airline labor the one greatly benefitted by cabotage laws, which the Jones Act extended to aviation by proxy when airplanes became commonplace to the paying public. Opening up domestic point-to-point to foreign crews and flags, would decimate US airline crew wages.
Who said the Jones Act (or its equivalence) needs to be repealed? The case could be made that extending the Jones Act to Puerto Rico is “unconstitutional” be a) while a US territory, PR isn’t a state; b) average incomes in PR are lower than in most or all the other states and it’s an island, so further increasing the cost of living even by a penny is morally wrong; and maybe a few more points. The point is that the Jones Act doesn’t have to be eliminated, just amended that says “Puerto Rico is excluded from the Jones Act or PR is excluded from the Jones Act starting in 2025 (or whatever year) or these parts of the Jones Act will not apply to PR, etc.”
You guys see things as black and white when in reality there is a lot of shades of gray between those two extremes.
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Here is the interesting part. Flights between Puerto Rico and the US mainland are considered domestic. You notice this in several ways including flights to San Juan from New York, Orlando, etc are considerably cheaper than say to other cities in the Caribbean except the other ones in PR or the US Virgin Islands. A passport isn’t required on US-Puerto Rico flights or vice versa. There are no non-US airlines that fly between the US mainland and Puerto Rico or vice versa. An American citizen/legal resident can buy a one way ticket from anywhere in the US mainland to PR or vice versa with no issue what-so-ever. When flying to foreign countries you must buy a return ticket before you leave the USA unless you are a citizen of that country too. These are only a few.
With that said, while all airplanes of US airlines has a US identity code next to the USA flag seen in the rear of every airplane (USA code starts with an N, other countries have different codes such as the DR start with HI, Haiti start with HT, etc) and an airplne has to comply with certain regulations to be able to be registered as a US airline; it doesn’t matter where the actual airplane in made. In US airlines you see Boeing airplanes which are made in the US, Embraer which are made in Brazil, Airbus which are made in Europe. Whwt matters is where the airline is registered to define its nationality. One thing you will notice though is that airplanes that belong to the US government many are Boeing because they are made in the USA.
The same is seen in other parts of the US government including at state, county and municipality government. Notice there isn’t a single police department that has a fleet of police cars/SUV’s that aren’t of an American car brand, usually Ford. I’m sure US police officers would not mind if a car or two in their fleet is a BMW or an Audi or perhaps a Lexus. It will not happen, at least in the USA. I don’t know if their is a law that requires all police vehicles to be American, but there probably is. In a country as big as the USA, for all police departments to have fleets of American cars, that is only achieved with a law of some sort.
I think you've identified a key difference between maritime and aviation cabotage laws. if maritime laws were in effect, only Boeing planes could be flown between PR and the mainland, which is preposterous, but that's the way the shipping laws are. interestingly, the us is a bigger player in aviation than shipping despite the ill advised jones act requirements.
Who said the Jones Act (or its equivalence) needs to be repealed? The case could be made that extending the Jones Act to Puerto Rico is “unconstitutional” be a) while a US territory, PR isn’t a state; b) average incomes in PR are lower than in most or all the other states and it’s an island, so further increasing the cost of living even by a penny is morally wrong; and maybe a few more points. The point is that the Jones Act doesn’t have to be eliminated, just amended that says “Puerto Rico is excluded from the Jones Act or PR is excluded from the Jones Act starting in 2025 (or whatever year) or these parts of the Jones Act will not apply to PR, etc.”
You guys see things as black and white when in reality there is a lot of shades of gray between those two extremes.
Hawaiians would not agree but for PR's sake that would work. For decades Hawaiians have purchased foreign oil due to inflated jones act costs (and complete non-existence of jones act ships for energy). . the mainland gets around it by not using ships. pipelines, trains, and trucks carry the vast majority of cargo. it is only places where that is not practical that tend to suffer. that said, my original question was really whether ships could be built in PR and qualify. despite the rabid claims made here, many countries have more liberal shipping laws even if it is still regulated.
To be clear, it is US airline labor the one greatly benefitted by cabotage laws, which the Jones Act extended to aviation by proxy when airplanes became commonplace to the paying public. Opening up domestic point-to-point to foreign crews and flags, would decimate US airline crew wages. Protectionist? Absolutely. People should be careful with cheerleading flags of convenience. They may feel "it works" for the proposition of boarding some flag of convenience floating hotel for 5 days, but when it comes to aviation, the stakes are a bit higher.
For disclosure, I'm biased as a US .mil pilot, and one for whom my civilian income potential is directly couched by the preservation of US anti-cabotage laws. As a native island PRican, I do not feel the Jones Act gentrified me out of my formative home. The faustian gamble of PR politicians favoring a caribbean tax cheat harbor vision for that 100x35 patch of mountainous earth, over one which favors their educated middle class (and the accompanying anti-middle class income tax tables of the island) is what kicked me out of my home. As such, I have no love lost for the political sellout class of my former home.
Lastly, in fairness to the Jones Act, the cabotage laws that protect US part 121 aviation could be passed as a stand-alone, separate from the legacy of Jones Act. Thing is, there's really no political impetus for that carve out anyways, given the status quo covers the bases.
aviation is different obviously since many airlines operate airbus planes. it's questionable whether wages would go down but competition increase. the US, could, for example, allow foreign carriers to operate between us cities but still require us crews. people had called for such measures due to the low quality of american air service but slowly but surely the more competitive EU airline structure has come to the us, largely from upstart challengers originating in states big enough to fly within (and thus not be subject to the same set of riles). we should be so lucky if maritime law were as liberal as aviation. the basic problem isn't just us companies and us crews but us ships. the us is among the most restrictive in the world and moves very little by ship as a consquence
Who said the Jones Act (or its equivalence) needs to be repealed? The case could be made that extending the Jones Act to Puerto Rico is “unconstitutional” be a) while a US territory, PR isn’t a state; b) average incomes in PR are lower than in most or all the other states and it’s an island, so further increasing the cost of living even by a penny is morally wrong; and maybe a few more points. The point is that the Jones Act doesn’t have to be eliminated, just amended that says “Puerto Rico is excluded from the Jones Act or PR is excluded from the Jones Act starting in 2025 (or whatever year) or these parts of the Jones Act will not apply to PR, etc.”
You guys see things as black and white when in reality there is a lot of shades of gray between those two extremes.
Why would the U.S. Supreme Court rule the Jones Act unconstitutional? That would mean that applying federal laws to their territories is unconstitutional. Only Congress could pass such a law.
Where in the constitution says that every state and territory should have equal incomes since there are wages in Puerto Rico higher than wages of average Americans in the states. Add that you are ignoring the underground economy in Puerto Rico. Do you notice that every time you go there, the stores, malls and supermarkets are packed and the roads full of cars. Puerto Rico's supermarkets have more variety of food and import products than a lot of states back in mainland. You notice multiple cars in each household garages (marquesina). For a territory that are dying of low wages, they sure own a lot of cars in the island and buy a lot at their local commerce and fly out a lot in trips and cruises.
How do you explain that by arguing they are the lowest in the 50 states and taking out the Jones Act will all of the sudden raise their wages and change their purchasing power. I don't know how you pass that in Congress or the Supreme Court.
On a note. You will have a better chance with this debate in taking the Jones Act out or amending it with the Republican party than Democrat party (ties to the unions) but it's just a small wing. Not enough votes for political leverage.
Why would the U.S. Supreme Court rule the Jones Act unconstitutional?
The Jones Act unnecessarily increases the costs of many goods. A large amount of US territories are islands with PR being the largest one, so a high cost of living is par for the course. What isn’t typical for islands is to have their already high cost of living be even more expensive by a law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
That would mean that applying federal laws to their territories is unconstitutional. Only Congress could pass such a law.
No it wouldn’t. The Supreme Court can and have dictated on various laws as unconstitutionals and it had no effect on the application of any laws anywhere. It simply affected the law deemned unconstitutional.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar
Where in the constitution says that every state and territory should have equal incomes since there are wages in Puerto Rico higher than wages of average Americans in the states. Add that you are ignoring the underground economy in Puerto Rico. Do you notice that every time you go there, the stores, malls and supermarkets are packed and the roads full of cars. Puerto Rico's supermarkets have more variety of food and import products than a lot of states back in mainland. You notice multiple cars in each household garages (marquesina). For a territory that are dying of low wages, they sure own a lot of cars in the island and buy a lot at their local commerce and fly out a lot in trips and cruises.
How do you explain that by arguing they are the lowest in the 50 states and taking out the Jones Act will all of the sudden raise their wages and change their purchasing power. I don't know how you pass that in Congress or the Supreme Court.
Most of what is consumed in PR is imported from the mainland. A reduction of shipping costs could translate to gains in purchasing power for the locals. This could be of interest to many Puerto Rican households. What percentage of Puerto Rican households receive some sort of government assistance? Some may be doing fraud, but most probably need those assistances.
The Jones Act unnecessarily increases the costs of many goods. A large amount of US territories are islands with PR being the largest one, so a high cost of living is par for the course. What isn’t typical for islands is to have their already high cost of living be even more expensive by a law.
Unnecessarily? That's an opinion. That's like saying I should pay this amount of sales tax and a list of other taxes because it "unnecessarily" increases the cost of living. I should pay whatever I feel is right for me.
You are a smart person, is that how you compare product with product with the rest of the islands in the Caribbean and Pacific without taking into account other factors that raises prices. What guarantee you have that the government and market will keep products low if the Jones Act disappears? Are you guaranteeing that they will cut down on taxes and regulations to keep the cost down? You can't.
Tell me why a car is more expensive in Dominican Republic than next door Puerto Rico? They don't have the Jones Act. The U.S. has No jurisdiction in the D.R. but gas is 30% more expensive in the D.R. than Puerto Rico. 1 Pair of Jeans (Levis 501 Or Similar) is 25% more expensive in D.R. than Puerto Rico. Imported beer is 25% more expensive in the D.R. than Puerto Rico. Add that they make 75% less in wages than Puerto Rico and their mortgage interest rates is 155% higher than Puerto Rico. The day the U.S. government lets Puerto Rico have that D.R. standard, it's the day Puerto Ricans all leave to the mainland or commit suicide. Why does D.R. has 60% less purchasing power than Puerto Rico if they don't have to follow the Jones Act?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR
No it wouldn’t. The Supreme Court can and have dictated on various laws as unconstitutionals and it had no effect on the application of any laws anywhere. It simply affected the law deemned unconstitutional.
I didn't get that. I never seen a S.C. declare a law unconstitutional for 1 area in the U.S. and ok for others. Maybe I misunderstood your comment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonioR
Most of what is consumed in PR is imported from the mainland. A reduction of shipping costs could translate to gains in purchasing power for the locals. This could be of interest to many Puerto Rican households. What percentage of Puerto Rican households receive some sort of government assistance? Some may be doing fraud, but most probably need those assistances.
Why is that? Any foreign ship can sail to P.R. directly to bring their products. Puerto Rico doesn't have an embargo because the U.S. provides credit and low interests to Puerto Rico. If you are using American products, American ports, American routes, American credit, American low interest rates and American protection, you have to play by their rules.
If Puerto Rico doesn't like it, then they get the products from a foreign country but the U.S. isn't providing the credit, low interests or protection. That's why most of the consumed in P.R. comes from mainland. You cut out the credit and hike up the interest rates, where is P.R. going to go? As a consumer, you rather be in Puerto Rico or any of the other islands in the Caribbean? As a consumer, would you rather be in Hawaii or any of the other islands in the Pacific?
Last edited by SanJuanStar; 02-20-2024 at 01:54 AM..
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