Michigan - Termination and denied benefits. (receive, claim, qualify, work)

[almostfunctional]

I'm posting on behalf of my wife who was denied unemployment in Michigan. We may have handled some things wrong before reading up on the issue, but are honest people and I'm just posting here for some insight, feedback, and or moral support. Maybe my timeline and updates can help someone else, or maybe they will just help us organize our thoughts.


Ultimatum: December 04, 2013
This all started when my wife's manager told her she could no longer work from home after 2 years of doing so. She was told she needed to find a way to work from the office or she wouldn't have a job. She had been switched to performing a different more complex task and her manager felt she was working to slow. My wife was floored and asked for time to remedy the situation from home and asked how exactly she could perform better. This had never been mentioned about her working to slow in the past. She was often praised, but neither the "reprimand" or the "praise" were anything other than verbal.

She was told the only option was to come in to the office and was given no mention of how to improve just work faster. She asked for time to arrange childcare and her manager let her have until the end of the year to arrange childcare. We moved mountains and she was back to work in the office the following Monday, December 9th and nothing was mentioned. Her direct manager was not even present that day.

Fired: December 10, 2013 (while not at work via phone and it was the 10th even though they list the 9th in her letter)
She was told she was fired for "performance" verbally on the phone by someone she didn't know. She was told her management would reach out to her to notify for sure why she was being terminated. Her manager never called and my wife was unable to reach her, so she called her superior. She listed the following reasons:

-"There have been performance issues in the past other than being slow"(one previous time she was notified projects were not launching on time, this was told to more than one employee and never happened again. It was common practice to delay starts based on a customer request. The timelines were flexible to all employees to organize workflow and were a guideline not a standard)
-"To quiet and distant when in the office"
-"She didn't feel it was a good fit"
-"She didn't like she reached out to other people in the organization to see if there were other work from home opportunities when told she had to adjust her location."

Filed for unemployment: December 10, 2013
When filing she was honest. She was told she was let go for performance and listed the date she was told she was working to slow. She never wanted to be seen as lying even if she felt it was unfair and unjust.
This was the response from Michigan UIA:

"Your claim for unemployment insurance benefits was filed on 12/10/2013. Your claim has been
processed to determine if you meet the requirements and are monetarily eligible to receive
benefits.
Based on the wages reported by your employer(s), it is determined that you are able to establish
a claim for unemployment benefits. You earned enough wages during your base period and
you meet the monetary requirements.
However, you reported that your separation from COMPANY NAME is for reasons other
than a lack of work. A determination must be issued regarding whether or not you are qualified
to receive benefits based on this separation. This determination will be sent in a separate
mailing."



Determination: December 27th, 2013

"Issues and Sections of Michigan Employment Security Act involved: Misconduct and 29(1)(b).
You were fired from COMPANY NAME on December 09, 2013 for failure to meet the employer's
standard of job performance.
You received warnings prior to your being fired. You had performed the job satisfactorily in the past. It
has been established your failure to meet the employer's standards was intentional.
You are disqualified for benefits under MES Act, Sec. 29(1)(b). Rework begins with week ending
December 21, 2013. You will not receive benefits until you satisfy the rework requirement."


Appeal of Determination: December 27th, 2013

This was her appeal submission:
"I was performing my job to the best of my abilities at all times. At no point was there intent on my part to perform poorly. Every assignment I completed was submitted to my manager for final approval and the quality of my work was always praised. I was never given a written warning regarding performance issues. I was never given specific metrics to meet and was only informed one day prior to being fired that there was an issue. I was told I had low productivity/was working too slow - there was no mention that the quality of my work was less than acceptable, only that I was too slow. I was told that I would need to work from the office where I could receive more support and immediately made arrangements to do so. I worked one day before being let go and during that day was given no indication that I was performing unsatisfactorily. I fulfilled all requests made by my manager including changing my working hours and location in order to increase my productivity but was let go after one day - before any of these agreed upon changes were able to make a difference."


Current Status: December 17th. 2013
Waiting for them to likely deny her again so she can get a hearing.

The bottom line is, she was never given a goal to meet. She was never told make x widgets per hour as she was doing work that relied heavily on other parties submitting data. The time varied on every single project and no two projects were the same. She probably should have made her appeal more succinct and short, which I realize may end up being an issue as sometimes less is more.

To anyone that got this far through my crazy thought process, thank you and I'll take anything you have to see into consideration, even if it is that the odds are grim.

[GlassJoe]

Did you ever get a hearing date? Our times match up pretty closely and I'm in Michigan too and STILL waiting. I've repeatedly tried calling and they don't even put me in a queue, it just gives an automated message to direct inquiries on the website for response. I did so a month ago and still haven't heard gotten a response. I found a Problem Resolution Office not far away and am thinking I should head there. I submitted my appeal in early January. It's been a long time and I'm out of finances.

[Chyvan]

The hugest thing your wife needs to say at her hearing is that the job CHANGED to a more complex task.

MI treats being able to do the job in the past and then getting complainants as you slacking off. The way to fix that intrepretation is by pointing out all the reasons that the job is HARDER than it used to be so that you can't be accused of having done well in the past and are now slacking off.

When it comes to poor performance, you don't want to say how you weren't a poor performer (it's not disqualifying). What she's written is justification for WHY she should be fired and denied UI.

When poor performance is in question you want to say things like, "I NEVER did a good job from the time I started. I was never able to do the job right." That's inability.

or

You say, "sure I used to do a good job, but then after they changed all my duties, I started to fail miserably." Both of the above are how you make poor performance treated as inability rather than misconduct.


What she wrote for her appeal can be fixed at the hearing. Just shift the focus.

[almostfunctional]

Sadly we still have still heard nothing Joe. Thanks for the insight Chyvan I think that is the route to take as well if we do indeed ever hear back. At this point we have just filed bankruptcy and are surviving with the mindset we will never see that money. We have no intention of giving up until all appeals are finished but in the interim life must go on.

[SchellBelle]

I hope this doesn't happen to me. I was fired on Jan. 10 for poor performance, but really I was never trained to do my job. I was a bit slow at figuring out the unemployment site, so while I have filed my first claim my case is still under review.

[Alaeth]

Originally Posted by almostfunctional

I'm posting on behalf of my wife who was denied unemployment in Michigan. We may have handled some things wrong before reading up on the issue, but are honest people and I'm just posting here for some insight, feedback, and or moral support. Maybe my timeline and updates can help someone else, or maybe they will just help us organize our thoughts.


Ultimatum: December 04, 2013
This all started when my wife's manager told her she could no longer work from home after 2 years of doing so. She was told she needed to find a way to work from the office or she wouldn't have a job. She had been switched to performing a different more complex task and her manager felt she was working to slow. My wife was floored and asked for time to remedy the situation from home and asked how exactly she could perform better. This had never been mentioned about her working to slow in the past. She was often praised, but neither the "reprimand" or the "praise" were anything other than verbal.

She was told the only option was to come in to the office and was given no mention of how to improve just work faster. She asked for time to arrange childcare and her manager let her have until the end of the year to arrange childcare. We moved mountains and she was back to work in the office the following Monday, December 9th and nothing was mentioned. Her direct manager was not even present that day.

Fired: December 10, 2013 (while not at work via phone and it was the 10th even though they list the 9th in her letter)
She was told she was fired for "performance" verbally on the phone by someone she didn't know. She was told her management would reach out to her to notify for sure why she was being terminated. Her manager never called and my wife was unable to reach her, so she called her superior. She listed the following reasons:

-"There have been performance issues in the past other than being slow"(one previous time she was notified projects were not launching on time, this was told to more than one employee and never happened again. It was common practice to delay starts based on a customer request. The timelines were flexible to all employees to organize workflow and were a guideline not a standard)
-"To quiet and distant when in the office"
-"She didn't feel it was a good fit"
-"She didn't like she reached out to other people in the organization to see if there were other work from home opportunities when told she had to adjust her location."

Filed for unemployment: December 10, 2013
When filing she was honest. She was told she was let go for performance and listed the date she was told she was working to slow. She never wanted to be seen as lying even if she felt it was unfair and unjust.
This was the response from Michigan UIA:

"Your claim for unemployment insurance benefits was filed on 12/10/2013. Your claim has been
processed to determine if you meet the requirements and are monetarily eligible to receive
benefits.
Based on the wages reported by your employer(s), it is determined that you are able to establish
a claim for unemployment benefits. You earned enough wages during your base period and
you meet the monetary requirements.
However, you reported that your separation from COMPANY NAME is for reasons other
than a lack of work. A determination must be issued regarding whether or not you are qualified
to receive benefits based on this separation. This determination will be sent in a separate
mailing."



Determination: December 27th, 2013

"Issues and Sections of Michigan Employment Security Act involved: Misconduct and 29(1)(b).
You were fired from COMPANY NAME on December 09, 2013 for failure to meet the employer's
standard of job performance.
You received warnings prior to your being fired. You had performed the job satisfactorily in the past. It
has been established your failure to meet the employer's standards was intentional.
You are disqualified for benefits under MES Act, Sec. 29(1)(b). Rework begins with week ending
December 21, 2013. You will not receive benefits until you satisfy the rework requirement."


Appeal of Determination: December 27th, 2013

This was her appeal submission:
"I was performing my job to the best of my abilities at all times. At no point was there intent on my part to perform poorly. Every assignment I completed was submitted to my manager for final approval and the quality of my work was always praised. I was never given a written warning regarding performance issues. I was never given specific metrics to meet and was only informed one day prior to being fired that there was an issue. I was told I had low productivity/was working too slow - there was no mention that the quality of my work was less than acceptable, only that I was too slow. I was told that I would need to work from the office where I could receive more support and immediately made arrangements to do so. I worked one day before being let go and during that day was given no indication that I was performing unsatisfactorily. I fulfilled all requests made by my manager including changing my working hours and location in order to increase my productivity but was let go after one day - before any of these agreed upon changes were able to make a difference."


Current Status: December 17th. 2013
Waiting for them to likely deny her again so she can get a hearing.

The bottom line is, she was never given a goal to meet. She was never told make x widgets per hour as she was doing work that relied heavily on other parties submitting data. The time varied on every single project and no two projects were the same. She probably should have made her appeal more succinct and short, which I realize may end up being an issue as sometimes less is more.

To anyone that got this far through my crazy thought process, thank you and I'll take anything you have to see into consideration, even if it is that the odds are grim.

Any updates as of now? I am in the same situation, I appealed the decision and waiting to see what happens next.

[GlassJoe]

Originally Posted by almostfunctional

Sadly we still have still heard nothing Joe. Thanks for the insight Chyvan I think that is the route to take as well if we do indeed ever hear back. At this point we have just filed bankruptcy and are surviving with the mindset we will never see that money. We have no intention of giving up until all appeals are finished but in the interim life must go on.

I wish you well and I imagine something must have occured by now since our dates were so similar in the same state. I ended up winning mine, the advocacy program helped a lot in that I had a free advocate who knew the ins-and-outs of the system. I likely would have had a strong case without her but she was smart about getting evidence such as prior write-ups dismissed as hearsay. Because of her they really didn't have a case at all.

Best wishes to you. Mine took so long that I didn't actually get my UI card until this week. 6 months after being fired and all 20 weeks already claimed. I'd never been fired before so I did not imagine what a nightmare it could be. If I ever get a scent of possibly being fired again, I'm gonna find new work ASAP instead of trying to stick with the company and prove how valuable I am (barf). Live & learn.

[Disgustedman]

If anything this points out that "Being ready" is far better then "Reacting after the bomb has gone off" Meaning have the $$ backup, resume ready to go and a complete roster of contacts.....20 weeks before you saw $$? Man that's tough.....