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Alright, I've heard quite a few people complaining about the perceived population density in the U.K, and how it's "overcrowded" and what not. Someone also said immigration has to be slowed down because it's getting "too much".
In contrast, 73% of Japan is not inhabitable and they have 127 million people at 377,00 km^2. Now, of course the U.K. is smaller. It's 244,000 km^2. But, again, 73% of Japan is inhabitable (see wikipedia ), and it seems like they are doing just fine. The U.K. could probably hit the 120 million mark and it would still be ok. Especially now that the architecture is much better than it was 200 years ago, and adding 4-5 more Londons would not take away a lot of space. It's 1,500 km^2 out of 244,000.
So, I think it's kind of funny when people say this. And, yes, I do know and realize that the U.K. can, technically, get "full", but probably not until they get north of 160 million or so. Needless to say that's not gonna happen any time soon.
Zzz, what makes you think you know better than those of us who actually live here and see everyday the high property prices, traffic congestion and water shortages coming up, all caused or made worse by a dense population? Why should we care what you think about what our population/immigration levels should be?
I'm sure if we wait long enough, the Americans will come along to tell us how to run our country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ben86
what makes you think you know better than those of us who actually live here and see everyday the high property prices, traffic congestion and water shortages coming up, all caused or made worse by a dense population?
To answer the OP, I think basically what people are getting at when they say the UK is "full" is that it is crowded by developed country standards. It is not really crowded by the world standards – go to Bangladesh, the northern plains of India, or the Indonesian island of Java for that.
However, it is true that in terms of density of population, the UK more resembles Japan than other European nations – and certainly North America. The consequences of this are that land prices are extremely high. Only the super rich live in housing sizes that you routinely find in your average middle class suburb in the US. (My cousin is a grad student in the DC metro area and the kind of house he and his housemates can afford would be on millionaire row in Britain.) The poorest live jam packed together in multi-occupancy terraced houses or crumbling 60s tower blocks – whole families in one room are not uncommon. For your average middle class family, affording a decent place is a major issue – workers in central London who need room for a family often have to put up with punishing commutes of several hours to get to where the housing's affordable.
Yes, it would be possible to add another 40 million. There is still plenty of green space – often because of green belt laws in place since the war. One thing Britain lacks is the semi-rural sprawl that I have observed going on for miles in the Americas and Asia (I think the geographers' term is "exurbia"?). Once you're in the countryside it's properly rural – and I think most people like to keep it that way. As well as cities – we need space to grow food after all!
Another problem I think we have relative to our continental cousins is the British cultural aversion to living in apartment buildings. Unless you're in London, flats are considered to be for the young, the single, or the poor. Every Englishman needs his castle (ie detached house with a garden), however boxy and tiny it be. Continental countries like Spain and Italy avoid some of the overcrowding issues we have by middle- and upper-class families in urban areas having no problem at all with living in an apartment block – often in very spacious and well-apportioned flats.
Another way we resemble Japan is that despite being a small island the population is not evenly spread out. While London, the south-east, the Midlands and the north west conurbations are some of the most densely populated parts of the world – with huge expanses of tightly-packed terraced houses which continue for miles – much of the country (the Scottish and Welsh highlands particularly) are totally empty. I have long mused that if global warming really got going and the climate of the far north of Scotland became a bit more amenable, a new city could be constructed right up on the north coast.
... Only the super rich live in housing sizes that you routinely find in your average middle class suburb in the US...For your average middle class family, affording a decent place is a major issue – workers in central London who need room for a family often have to put up with punishing commutes of several hours to get to where the housing's affordable. ...London, the south-east, the Midlands and the north west conurbations are some of the most densely populated parts of the world....
While much of what you said is true, I respectfully disagree with the above.
I live in a big 5 bedroom house in the East Midlands, a 1 hour commute into St Pancras station. We paid just over £200,000 for our house - did I mention the huge garden we have? We are not super rich, not by a long shot. We ARE an average middle class family. Outside of London there are many affordable places to be found with a commute that is not "punishing" .
Of course London and the cities are crowded - but the Midlands? There are miles and miles of green rolling hills and country lanes everywhere.
While much of what you said is true, I respectfully disagree with the above.
I live in a big 5 bedroom house in the East Midlands, a 1 hour commute into St Pancras station. We paid just over £200,000 for our house - did I mention the huge garden we have? We are not super rich, not by a long shot. We ARE an average middle class family. Outside of London there are many affordable places to be found with a commute that is not "punishing" .
Of course London and the cities are crowded - but the Midlands? There are miles and miles of green rolling hills and country lanes everywhere.
Exactly!
My mother and her husband recently bought a really beautiful house in Grantham for a bit less than that. Huge garden, walking distance to the train and local shops.
To say that ALL of Britain has vastly expensive houses and is overcrowded is a load of old bollox. House prices in many parts of the US are no better, plus you have to pay thousands of dollars a year in property tax.
Despite the UK's high population, it may surprise the know it alls, but vast open spaces and beautiful countryside are not difficult to find. Also, much of the population density is in the south east, north west and west midlands. Much of East Anglia, Wales, Yorkshire, Devon & Cornwall and Scotland north of Edinburgh and Glagow is still quite rural, with even vast areas of wilderness in northern Scotland.
I believe that London is engaging in building several residential high rises. If this is mirrored in other cities, it may help bring costs down eventually.
Another thing...rents in the UK aren't that bad at all, aside from London.
Welfare isnt the problem. Immigration can bring many benefits and the UK should be doing a better job of attracting and retaining talent, and investing in future growth.
It's funny that people are always quick to talk about welfare, benefits or housing but never ever speak of corporate welfare. If you're worried about lack of jobs, why aren't you blaming deregulation or spending cuts??
I bought this up in the rabid political forum and no one could answer me...
A large chunk of welfare actually goes towards the working poor, subsidising their crappy wages, even though they work full time. We blame the individuals, yet we don't blame the companies for basically profiteering from government-subsidised labor, e.g. Walmart, who have been known to actually encourage their employees to apply for food stamps, etc. If full time work paid people enough to live, we wouldn't need to subsidise crappy wages anymore and would be collectively better off, even if companies such as McDonald's felt it necessary to raise the price of a Big Mac to retain their profit margins. If your business can only surrive by paying employees crappy wages, maybe you shouldn't be in business at all?
"Gonna get" full? *&^%$, I couldn't imagine being cooped up on that island with 60 million other people.
It's actually not that bad I've been here before, not as a tourist, just a visitor and I'm here again. It feels less crowded than Puerto Rico that's for sure. I'm not in London either, just outside of it. London is crazy
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Originally Posted by jzhang1
London has astronomical housing prices because of stupid green belt laws. These laws are favored by land owners, because it drives up the price of their main asset. If the country invested in high quality public transportation and eased up on restrictive zoning housing would be a lot more affordable.
If UK actually built a decent high speed rail network the whole country could be one giant suburb of London. The latest Chinese HSR from Beijing to Shanghai can do London to Liverpool in under an hour, which is less time it took me to commute from Queens to Manhattan in NYC using the subway.
Here's the problem. If they took out the greenbelt laws, about half of England would become one giant sprawling suburb. England is not the US and vice versa. Can you imagine Michigan or Florida being paved over almost entirely?
While much of what you said is true, I respectfully disagree with the above.
I live in a big 5 bedroom house in the East Midlands, a 1 hour commute into St Pancras station. We paid just over £200,000 for our house - did I mention the huge garden we have? We are not super rich, not by a long shot. We ARE an average middle class family. Outside of London there are many affordable places to be found with a commute that is not "punishing" .
Of course London and the cities are crowded - but the Midlands? There are miles and miles of green rolling hills and country lanes everywhere.
I agree. Too many people seem to think England is only the southeast. Down here it's pretty crowded but look on a map and most of England is smaller towns, villages, and sparsely populated countryside
Britinparis the central belt of Scotland (where most of the population live) is actually pretty densely populated. Glagow, Paisley and Lanarkshire over to Edinburgh and the Lothians with Falkirk, Stirling, Perth etc inbetween. And Dundee, just north of Edinburgh, is the 2nd most densely populated city in Scotland after Glagow. Large parts of Scotland are sparsely populated with most of Scotlands citizens living in and around the central belt.
It's actually not that bad I've been here before, not as a tourist, just a visitor and I'm here again. It feels less crowded than Puerto Rico that's for sure. I'm not in London either, just outside of it. London is crazy
Here's the problem. If they took out the greenbelt laws, about half of England would become one giant sprawling suburb. England is not the US and vice versa. Can you imagine Michigan or Florida being paved over almost entirely?
That's exactly it. Green belt laws are there for the exact reason you stated. As far as space goes, perhaps more should be done to regenerate derelict or former industrial land to convert to mid rise residential areas? I noticed that in London, there was something of a residential (and commercial) high rise boom going on.
The beauty of the English countryside is that it's so accessible and doesn't feel as crowded as it might look from looking at a map. The fact that stuff is so close together in the UK can be seen as an advantage, rather than the glass half empty mentality. You don't have to drive far to either find yourself in a bustling town or city or the middle of the countryside, patchwork fields and ancient hedgerows and woodlands. Can't beat it!
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