Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
One thing that worries me about the EU debate is that the bulk of the 'outers' are Tories, and I'm instinctively suspicious of anything the Tories advocate.
In turn that makes me wonder if we'd be better or worse off under an unshackled Tory government if we do leave.
We often complain about being tied to EU legislation but is some of that legislation an advantage to the ordinary working man?
Frankly I've no idea. Any thoughts?
One thing that worries me about the EU debate is that the bulk of the 'outers' are Tories, and I'm instinctively suspicious of anything the Tories advocate.
In turn that makes me wonder if we'd be better or worse off under an unshackled Tory government if we do leave.
We often complain about being tied to EU legislation but is some of that legislation an advantage to the ordinary working man?
Frankly I've no idea. Any thoughts?
One polite suggestion before you get the ball rolling. Don't think with your "instincts", and engage brain.
As it happens I was watching Polly Toynbee on Newsnight tonight and she was talking about the value of workers' rights, social guarantees, human rights etc. which the 'outers' want to get rid of as they see it as unnecessary regulation.
This is the sort of thing that worries me because I can quite see this happening.
The EU is essentially a 1960s/1970s solution to a 1930s/1940s problem. The big question is whether it is fit for the 21st century.
With a huge and unelected bureaucracy and endless 'rules making', it is also beset by some 25,000 lobbyists which act as an anti-competitive barrier to innovation and new products. Corruption would appear to be rife and EU auditors have refuses to sign off more than £100 billion of its own spending.
There is also a huge democratic deficit which means that many decisions made in Brussels have no real scrutiny.
The problem is that the EU is hugely beneficial to France, Germany and the Benelux countries which means that attempts at reform are simply not going to happen. Mediterranean countries are essentially kept in through their financial dependence on Germany and the new entrants are there more out of fear of Russia and the hope of some crumbs from Germany's table.
The big question is whether there is any real advantage to the UK of staying in the EU. While the EU is far and away the biggest trading partner, the UK runs a trade deficit with the EU; £59 billion in 2014. So the idea that the EU is going to put those exports at risk in the event of a Brexit is the stuff of fantasy. There would be a free trade agreement.
Then again, because of the economic importance of the EU, our exporters would be more or less forced to adopt EU standards and regulations for their products. If you are going to have to toe the line anyway then might as well have a seat at the table.
On the other hand, almost 2 million British citizens have taken advantage of the EU to live, work and retire in other countries. A similar number of EU citizens live and work in the UK. Contrary to popular opinion, less than 40% of UK immigration comes from the EU. Most is from non EU countries and is under the control of the UK government. There would be a serious human issue to consider should the UK exit.
The pro/anti EU debate is a hugely complex one. On balance, membership is probably more beneficial than detrimental. But the EU does need some serious reform. I rather suspect that, should a Brexit look possible or probable, then the concessions will begin to flow. The EU simply cannot afford to lose the UK either economically or politically. But there will be no reform unless the dagger is being held to their throats.
So the idea that the EU is going to put those exports at risk in the event of a Brexit is the stuff of fantasy. There would be a free trade agreement.
As we keep being told by Farage and his new chums Boris and Michael. There is absolutely no guarantee of this whatsoever.
Firstly, Britain's exports to the EU are far more important to us than our imports are to the EU. Simply look at the respective percentages of GDP they represent. Secondly, in the case of Brexit, it is in the EU's interests to make things as difficult as possible for the UK lest other sceptical nations (Denmark, for example) get similar ideas. We will be made an example of. There will be massive resentment from Europe to the UK if we exit, and whilst the thought of winding up pompous French, Belgians, Germans and truculent eastern Europeans gets the UKIP fraternity all moist (and I too enjoy the notion!), it won't do us any good in the medium or long term.
There is loads wrong with the EU and much that needs reform. The question is not whether it is an ideal construct and perfect for the UK. It's whether we are better in or out, and I am in no doubt whatsoever the answer to that is IN!
As we keep being told by Farage and his new chums Boris and Michael. There is absolutely no guarantee of this whatsoever.
Firstly, Britain's exports to the EU are far more important to us than our imports are to the EU. Simply look at the respective percentages of GDP they represent. Secondly, in the case of Brexit, it is in the EU's interests to make things as difficult as possible for the UK lest other sceptical nations (Denmark, for example) get similar ideas. We will be made an example of. There will be massive resentment from Europe to the UK if we exit, and whilst the thought of winding up pompous French, Belgians, Germans and truculent eastern Europeans gets the UKIP fraternity all moist (and I too enjoy the notion!), it won't do us any good in the medium or long term.
There is loads wrong with the EU and much that needs reform. The question is not whether it is an ideal construct and perfect for the UK. It's whether we are better in or out, and I am in no doubt whatsoever the answer to that is IN!
As we keep being told by Farage and his new chums Boris and Michael. There is absolutely no guarantee of this whatsoever.
Firstly, Britain's exports to the EU are far more important to us than our imports are to the EU. Simply look at the respective percentages of GDP they represent. Secondly, in the case of Brexit, it is in the EU's interests to make things as difficult as possible for the UK lest other sceptical nations (Denmark, for example) get similar ideas. We will be made an example of. There will be massive resentment from Europe to the UK if we exit, and whilst the thought of winding up pompous French, Belgians, Germans and truculent eastern Europeans gets the UKIP fraternity all moist (and I too enjoy the notion!), it won't do us any good in the medium or long term.
There is loads wrong with the EU and much that needs reform. The question is not whether it is an ideal construct and perfect for the UK. It's whether we are better in or out, and I am in no doubt whatsoever the answer to that is IN!
You can't look at the balance sheet and determine the actual importance of exports (or imports) from the cash value listed.
The UK makes all airbus wings and half of the engines (the other being GE/P&W), so there's a biggie right there, may only export a few million pounds of wings a year, maybe tens of millions of engines, but Airbus then can't sell it's aircraft for a lot of money (around $400M per plane, and 140 remaining to be delivered). It's also high profile, Boeing would love it. Aerospace and defense is another, electronic warfare, radar, munitions, even guns are a hugely important export of the UK to Europe, then there's financial services and software. As individual pieces these might not appear to be significant in the balance of trade, but ther exports from the EU to the RoW are dependent on these UK exports, without those smaller pieces or services then the bigger export cannot be produced and reduces Europes exports. I don't believe that the balance of trade can be used to simply determine what is more or less important, because it's not a simple equation because we're way past looking at exporting iron or coal and importing wheat. Now it's we export 100,000 servo actuators, which are used in an auto plant in Wolfsburg, with components from all over the world, and then exported as an Audi. No actuators, no Audi, so Jenny in California can't get her Audi as a graduation present. 100,000 actuators at $10 per actuator goes into a $35,000 car, without that $1M import you're not getting $3.5B in exports.
I'd like to ask why you think you're better in than out? I'm not UK resident, nor do I plan on becoming UK resident again, but why do you think you're better in than out? I'd prefer you present them as positives, things it brings, not as negatives or risks of leaving.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
