Considering sprawl and smart growth in a metro area, should suburban cities be limited in growth? (largest, market)
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New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia and Miami don't count as real cities?
and thats it for the big cities. Missing - baltimore, DC (and seattle, but I dont know Seattle)
Alexandria VA is only 8500 per sq mile. Come visit Alex, I think you will find it pretty dense (its got a moderate number of uptownish, walkable, nabes of SFHs on quarter lots, and non residential land that pull the average down)
DC also has lots of non residential acreage (no skyscrapers, so the dense commercial takes up more acreage, plus lots of parks and monuments) and SOME lower density residential areas (again, older, uptownish, relatively walkable).
and thats it for the big cities. Missing - baltimore, DC (and seattle, but I dont know Seattle)
Alexandria VA is only 8500 per sq mile. Come visit Alex, I think you will find it pretty dense (its got a moderate number of uptownish, walkable, nabes of SFHs on quarter lots, and non residential land that pull the average down)
DC also has lots of non residential acreage (no skyscrapers, so the dense commercial takes up more acreage, plus lots of parks and monuments) and SOME lower density residential areas (again, older, uptownish, relatively walkable).
Old Town in Alexandria definately is a walkable area and feels like a mid-sized city. I imagine the density figures are skewed by some lessor developed areas within the borders, National may even be technically within the limits or part anyway. I agree one has to judge the place
DC to me feels like the 6th (if you can quantify that) most urban city in the country just going by feel and the pedestrain and PT vibe which can trump density. Now some level of sustained density is likely required but DC most definately fits the bill as does Baltimore IMHO. Seattle to me has a virbrant and dense core but looses its urban feel much more quickly than does a DC or Baltimore
Old Town in Alexandria definately is a walkable area and feels like a mid-sized city. I imagine the density figures are skewed by some lessor developed areas within the borders, National may even be technically within the limits or part anyway. I agree one has to judge the place
there are a bunch of dense areas outside old town - they are mostly hirises, and some not particularly walkable areas - but I bet they match Old town for people per square mile.
New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, San Francisco, Philadelphia and Miami don't count as real cities? Plenty of medium-sized cities too--Cambridge, West Hollywood, Norwalk, Paterson, Hempstead, Huntington Park, Daly City etcetera. The fact that many of these places aren't thought of as "big cities" is pretty strong evidence that density doesn't have to mean uncomfortable, tightly-packed places, but rather a more livable urbanism. The fact that a lot of these places are "old towns" also illustrates the potential of historic neighborhoods as models for cities that are dense, compact and walkable, but also livable, comfortable, and built at a human scale.
So yes, I'd say that the list means a whole lot!
Los Angeles has a density of 7,544.6 people per sq mile. That city is way behind the 10,000 people per sq. mile threshold.
but NIH is still between Bethesda and Rockville. OTOH USAAMRID, etc are all the way out in Frederick. Im not sure it would be an open and shut case either way.
We are dealing with space here. Shady Grove Life Science Center, Shady Grove Adventist Hospital, John Hopkins University, and Shady Grove University are all the anchors for this project. They are the ones who are expanding their facilities. This plan is not coming from scratch. It's an expansion of facilities and institutes already here. NIH is not involved in building this project. MedImmune and Human Genome are just a few companies that are right here involved in the project and they aren't in Bethesda. Gaithersburg is already the biotech capitol for the region without the Science City expansion, where else would it go if not there?
How does the projected population of Gaithersburg compare with the projected number of jobs? If all this development means people will have to drive in from elsewhere in the region that won't be ideal either.
Anyways, from the looks of it, some parts of Gaithersburg will certainly be dense, but others will be much less dense.
By the way, to add to the list of American cities above 10000ppsm, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are above that density too.
How does the projected population of Gaithersburg compare with the projected number of jobs? If all this development means people will have to drive in from elsewhere in the region that won't be ideal either.
Anyways, from the looks of it, some parts of Gaithersburg will certainly be dense, but others will be much less dense.
By the way, to add to the list of American cities above 10000ppsm, Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are above that density too.
Here are the current jobs as of 2008 and the estimated jobs by 2030. MEL stands for Maximum Expansion Limits which represents land the city could realistically annex by 2030.
In 2008, Gaithersburg jobs went as follows:
Gaithersburg City proper: 55,968 jobs
Gaithersburg City MEL (Maximum Expansion Limits): 36,905 jobs
Total = 92,873 jobs
In 2030 Gaithersburg jobs estimates:
Gaithersburg City proper without annexation: 130,037 jobs
Gaithersburg City MEL (Maximum Expansion Limits): 75,864 jobs
Total with annexation = 205,901 jobs
Here is the population prediction for Gaithersburg in 2030.
Gaithersburg City proper without annexation: 98,256 people in 10.2 sq. miles (density of 9,633 people per sq. mile)
Gaithersburg City MEL (Maximum Expansion Limits): 40,089 people
Total with annexation = 138,345 people in 15.6 sq. miles (density of 8,868 people per sq. mile)
My fault for mentioning LA--although it is clear that a lot of smaller cities in LA County have those high population densities. They are not remote hamlets in the middle of nowhere--they are dense enclaves surrounded by other dense enclaves.
only five of the top 25 biggest cities in the US are over 10,000 (and DC is just below 10,000.) That has more to do with the fact that western and southern cities grew primarily by annexation of low-density suburbs than anything else. Heck, the city where I live had a population density of over 10,000 people per square mile in 1910--back when the city only took up four square miles! It dropped down to its current density after annexing another 94 square miles of city. That's not "urbanity" so much as it is, once again, the very definition of "sprawl." On the other hand, the densest large cities tend to be older ones that grew upward because they didn't have the option of growing outward.
My fault for mentioning LA--although it is clear that a lot of smaller cities in LA County have those high population densities. They are not remote hamlets in the middle of nowhere--they are dense enclaves surrounded by other dense enclaves.
only five of the top 25 biggest cities in the US are over 10,000 (and DC is just below 10,000.) That has more to do with the fact that western and southern cities grew primarily by annexation of low-density suburbs than anything else. Heck, the city where I live had a population density of over 10,000 people per square mile in 1910--back when the city only took up four square miles! It dropped down to its current density after annexing another 94 square miles of city. That's not "urbanity" so much as it is, once again, the very definition of "sprawl." On the other hand, the densest large cities tend to be older ones that grew upward because they didn't have the option of growing outward.
They grew upward because things had to be closer in the days when you had to walk everywhere. Streetcars allowed cities to be a little less dense, and cars even less so. Is that what you mean?
Anyways, I agree 10,000 isn't that dense since much of Toronto's suburban fringe is 12-15,000. I would say 10,000 is moderately dense, 20,000 is quite dense, 30,000 is dense, 50,000 is very dense and 200,000 is extremely dense.
My fault for mentioning LA--although it is clear that a lot of smaller cities in LA County have those high population densities. They are not remote hamlets in the middle of nowhere--they are dense enclaves surrounded by other dense enclaves.
only five of the top 25 biggest cities in the US are over 10,000 (and DC is just below 10,000.)
i believe the discussion of density started with this
"Okay, in other words, what you're talking about is an "edge city" if the jobs:resident balance is any indication. Is this being done in conjunction with a regional planning agency? Is there a regional plan? What are the projected effects of the project on the DC core? is it expected to steal existing jobs from DC proper? If so, I can see why they might be worried about it.
60,000 in 10.2 square miles is a touch less than 6000 people per square mile...I wouldn't call that particularly dense, nor 8000"
I would suggest that a jurisdiction of any size that is at 8000 per square mile, infill development, esp well designed and transit oriented, would be appropriate.
My only concern with gaithersburg would be not its density, nor its transit orientation, but its location (I cant really explain this without a map) Mdallstart says all the likely tenants are already located in Gburg and wouldnt move closer in, so I guess theres not really anything to debate. It would really help if he would provide a link so I could see the actual cases made by the project opponents.
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