Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I would disagree with your comment that suburbs in the Northeast don't have sidewalks. Just about every suburban town worth its salt in the Northeast has lots of sidewalks, a city hall, library, public parks etc. I've seen this all over the area; both the suburbs of NYC and Philly.
The only suburbs in this area that don't have sidewalks and basic services (like public parks or a community center/seniors center) are those that are: very poor, out in the middle of nowhere, or built within the past 20-30 years.
It doesn't really matter though because even most of the older suburbs in the Northeast that have little downtowns with plenty of sidewalks are still not walkable. This is because the growth that occured in these towns since the 1950s became very low density and sprawling. So generally people in these area are completely car dependent, even if there is a nice downtown (i.e. they have to hop in their car and drive to the downtown).
The areas that I have seen down south and out west (Florida, the Carolinas, Texas, Arizona, California) seem to be much worse in this regard than even over here in the Northeast. Most of these new sunbelt cities and suburbs lack any sort of downtown and are just endless stretches of strip malls and housing developments. So in most cases there isn't even a downtown where one could drive to, park, and then walk around. There are just strip malls, everywhere, in the sunbelt.
But it doesn't really matter if either of these suburbs (Sunbelt or Northeast) have sidewalks or not in my mind, because there is no place to walk to.
Yes, they are that different. I would have to do quite a search to find this stuff when it was discussed on that forum, but yes, it's true. Most burbs there do not have sidewalks. I agree about Chicago. Everywhere I have been has sidewalks.
How bizarre. That would drive me nuts! I dont like walking on the streets. Not only is it unsafe, but a lack of sidewalks doesnt make a neighborhood feel like a "real" neighborhood, IMO.
There are other postings about this issue in Pittsburgh, as well. This seems to be common throughout the northeast. It is uncommon here, and in California (the root of all evil) as well. Maybe the city planners have learned something over the years. I recall sidewalks in my BIL's neighborhood in suburban Omaha as well.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 09-11-2007 at 04:32 PM..
Reason: clarification
All of this intelligent debate will sadly fall upon deaf ears though as I'll likely be fielding two more inquiries by the morning about tract-housing in the Poconos for NYC commuters. It seems as if the era of people wanting to get off their fat rear-ends to walk to a corner store to buy a gallon of milk or to walk their kids to a playground in a true WALKABLE community is long gone---who needs the gift of two legs when we have the gift of four wheels on our SUVs? Who has time anymore to sit on a front porch in suburbia and mingle with the neighbors when we now have to spend upwards of 30-minutes each way commuting in and out of the city to work while several generations ago many people lived within a short walk of their workplaces?
Unless you are young and were forced to grow up in a sterile, sidewalk-less suburb like those that have infected Pennsylvania's countryside like hemorrhoids, you truly don't see the folly in urban sprawl. As far as most are concerned, the "prestige" factor of living in a McMansion community that is inaccessible to pedestrians far outweighs the strains they place upon their children. When you move to McMansionvilles, your children become dullards like me because we can't ride our bikes due to a lack of sidewalks nor can we walk to a park, playground, ball field, etc. along the nearby busy four-lane commuter belts.
This is the utmost reason why I've decided to raise my family within walking distance to Downtown Scranton in the upcoming years. I want my children to be able to walk to friends' homes, their elementary schools, churches, parks, ice cream parlors, playgrounds, etc. so they can have the childhood I was deprived of here in PA's poorly-planned and image-obsessed suburbs. I want myself to be able to walk to my downtown firm, where my domestic partner can walk to meet me during lunch hours before I walk to my childrens' school at 3 PM to pick them up. There's a lot to be said for our safe, older, established neighborhoods---it's a shame the majority of you on City-Data are lemmings who get all googley-eyed over the prospect of moving an hour away from the "icky" city with its "ickiness" just so you can instead be within DRIVING distance of the Wal-Mart and Home Depot in your new "downtown" in suburbia.
To get back on topic, PA's suburbs are uniformly devoid of sidewalks, which I also feel contributes to our state's massive problems with heart disease, obesity, traffic congestion, etc. Heaven forbid anyone is permitted to walk anywhere here anymore, much less be permitted to live in---gasp---a MIXED-ZONING neighborhood with churches, markets, shops, workplaces, parks, etc. If you don't believe what social elitists most PA suburbanites have become simply refer to the recent case of people in a suburban housing development near me opposing the construction of a nearby BANK for fears it would "reduce their quality-of-life." A similar case happened near Lewisburg, PA, in which people in a newer McMansionville likewise rallied against a new grocery store that would have been within walking distance of their neighborhood for similar fears of "diminished quality-of-life." Suburbanites here in PA have become fearful of anything and everything that springs up near them that isn't vinyl-sided, two-story, three-car-garaged, and enveloped with at least 3,500 square feet of living space for their 2.1 children. Naturally there are always some exceptions to this rule, but this is the sad tale of what is happening to much of PA's countryside now that the NY/NJ crowd has "discovered" us.
Unless you are young and were forced to grow up in a sterile, sidewalk-less suburb like those that have infected Pennsylvania's countryside like hemorrhoids, you truly don't see the folly in urban sprawl. As far as most are concerned, the "prestige" factor of living in a McMansion community that is inaccessible to pedestrians far outweighs the strains they place upon their children. When you move to McMansionvilles, your children become dullards like me because we can't ride our bikes due to a lack of sidewalks nor can we walk to a park, playground, ball field, etc. along the nearby busy four-lane commuter belts.
I have to disagree with you there SWB. Many of the suburbs in Phoenix are made particularly for families with bike trails, walkways, parks, playgrounds, etc. Isn't this why most families move to Suburbia in the 1st place? My planned community is not exactly made for families like ones in Gilbert and Chandler but I could drive around and see kids playing in the streets and driveways or riding their bikes up and down walkways. The problem with living in an urban area is the traffic congestion, the lack of space, and the need to DRIVE to parks. You don't see parks right smack-dab in the middle of a dense area (Central Park being an exception to this rule). Suburbia is the perfect place to raise kids in my opinion...
Who has time anymore to sit on a front porch in suburbia and mingle with the neighbors when we now have to spend upwards of 30-minutes each way commuting in and out of the city to work while several generations ago many people lived within a short walk of their workplaces?
30 minute commute?!?! Please tells us more about this paradise! Most commuters would give their eyeteeth for a 30-45 minute commute now that the 60-90 minute commute has become the norm.
On to the original topic. What I have noticed in my personal experience is that suburbs built between 1945 to about 1980 were uniquely pedestrian unfriendly. Children playing in or near the streets were just so much roadkill that got in the way of the real purpose of civilization which was the promotion of, and propagation of, the holy and sacred Automobile. At least in California, suburbs of that era, and there are TONS of them here, are very sidewalk poor. Newer suburbs built in the 80s and later, have more sidewalks, denser housing on smaller lots, (McMansions), than the immediate post-war suburbs. It actually makes for a very odd feeling where you have a very dense inner core of small houses on small lots, surrounded by larger low rise ranch houses on larger lots, that are then surrounded by even bigger houses on lots that are smaller than in the intervening area. Only after that do you get to the houses on real acreage.
kettlepot's post sort of proves at least part of my OP. City planners have gotten a little wiser over the years. Maybe I focused on the east vs west b/c many of the burbs in the older eastern cities were built during the time frame kettlepot describes.
In Colorado, as I have stated, there are few sidewalk-less areas, even in the older suburbs. It does make for more walkability.
Well, Kettlepot, you're fortunate that post-1980s suburbs in the West have learned from their mistakes and are now friendlier to pedestrians, bicyclists, children, etc. Those newer subdivisions springing up left and right near me are still devoid of sidewalks, curbs, streetlights, etc. in most cases and are generally disconnected from the rest of the community, requiring children to beg their parents for a "ride" to get to the nearest park or playgound (which they should be able to friggin' WALK to!) Whenever I gripe at local town meetings about the lack of sidewalks and/or bike lanes in the community, I'm pretty much shut up because the rest of my moronic neighbors feel as if the prospect of a tax increase to bring our neighborhoods into the 21st Century isn't worth it since they are perfectly content driving everywhere for everything anyways.
Speedy, you seem to have been exposed to suburbs in Phoenix that were more carefully planned out than many here on the East Coast (vegaspilgrim also drove that point home to me a few months ago via DM). With the exception of our inner former streetcar suburbs here in my area (Dunmore and Kingston come to mind), most newer suburbs consist of random cul-de-sacs that are named after the trees they uprooted and are connected to a major four-lane commuter belt, making for easy commutes but also trapping children inside their homes when their parents are unable to drive them anywhere (where they simply play video games and become gelatinous).
If PA would open its eyes to the benefits of mixed-use zoning and catering to the needs of its pedestrians and bicyclists, then I probably wouldn't think our local suburbs were the devil incarnate! Unfortunately, I don't live in a very "pro-active" state on ANY progressive social issues, be it cell phone usage while driving, public smoking, DUIs, trans-fats, or same-sex civil unions, so I highly doubt we'll see any progress into the notion of building PROPER suburbs at any point in the near-future, which will only strengthen the resolve of those of us in the Scranton Area to protest sprawl.
Actually, I don't think it takes mixed-use zoning as much as it takes public officials willing to make the developers put in sidewalks! Period. We don't have a lot of mixed use zoning in my town, but one can walk to the grocery store, library, etc. The city built two underpasses under busy roads so kids can walk/bike to school safely. Having once lived in PA, I think that state definitely needs to get rid of the 'township' governmnet for what are essentially suburban cities.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
It seems as if the era of people wanting to get off their fat rear-ends to walk to a corner store to buy a gallon of milk or to walk their kids to a playground in a true WALKABLE community is long gone---who needs the gift of two legs when we have the gift of four wheels on our SUVs? 
