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I think this is a bogus way to try to deflect attention from the fact that gentrification is primarily a white, upper middle ciass phenomenon. A black person (or a Hispanic) moving into a neighborhood is not perceived the same as a white person moving into a neighborhood for the reasons I stated in my previous post. And the real-world consequences of their respective presences are very different. An upper middle class white person who moves to Harlem signals to other upper middle class whites (and Whole Foods, Target, real estate developers, etc.) that "Hey, the neighborhood's coming along." An upper middle class black person moving to Harlem is no big deal because upper middle class blacks have always been there. Where do you think Charles Rangel lives?
I never really thought of it that way. I'm a mixed raced transplant, but I never thought of myself as a yuppie or a gentrifier and I don't live where other gentrifiers live. A lot of the residents and my neighbors have been living here for years and I don't think they've ever viewed me the way they might view other transplants.
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Originally Posted by BajanYankee
I think it's also important to note that the nature of gentrification has changed. It's more corporate and public poilcy driven than it's ever been (at least in my lifetime). In the 60s and 70s, it was probably just artists, punks or whoever moving to neighborhoods like the East Village. Today, it's Forest City Ratner, Clark Construction and politicians working in tandem to create cities for the elite. Nearly any development you walk by in NYC has "Luxury condos starting from..." or "Live, Work and Play!" They've done a rather fine of job of communicating the message that money is required to enjoy this new urban paradise.
I've noticed that as well. It's pretty interesting to think how things such as abandoned factories have been commercialized and converted into these expensive lofts. 50 years, you had artists renting them out for low rents because those were the cheapest places to live.
They arebuying in the city. I live in the city. All of my friends live in the city. The issue is that there are not that many blacks or Hispanics earning that type of money. But the ones who do earn that type of money tend to live in the city.
What? Most blacks who earn that kind of money do tend to live in the city? What makes you say that?
Last edited by MDAllstar; 09-25-2013 at 10:30 AM..
What? Most blacks who earn that kind of money don't tend to live in the city? What makes you say that?
I didn't say that the ones earning that type of money DO NOT tend to live in the city. I said that the ones earning lawyer/banker/doctor bucks DO tend to live in the city.
No, you're missing what I'm saying. Not all white people are the same. You have upper middle class white people who attend schools like Princeton, Michigan and Berkeley, vote Democratic, treasure the environment, and care about walkability and value urban living and amenities over space. And then you have white people who attend community college, have crappy jobs, vote Republican, and care more about the football room in their house on their half acre suburban lot than they do walkable access to the farmer's market for fresh organic veggies.
So it's not a racial thing per se. The preference for urban or suburban living is largely a class thing (though not completely, obvi). If you look at black kids who attended Princeton, Michigan and Berkeley, they likely value the same things as their white counterparts. They're just not as noticeable because they are significantly smaller in number.
And they would fall into the group I was not talking about wouldn't they? Remember this post:
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Originally Posted by MDAllstar
You must have missed what I was saying. I am talking about affluent people who live in the city and like the city more than the suburbs. I am also talking about generation Y. Generation Y has a completely different view of the world, however, our cultural assimilation is intact. Urban city black people still think space is important and urban city white people still think space is overrated. That's why black people who live in the city that get the means to buy a $2 million dollar home are buying houses in the suburbs instead of condo's in the city. By the way, White people left the city in the 1950's for the American dream just as much as crime. People wanted the "Leave it to Beaver" easy life from the catalog. We are talking about two different times and people. Again, this is general, but many affluent white and black people living in cities around the country say these things.
I will give you an example of what I mean. If prices went up in the city to levels you and your friends couldn't afford if you were a renter (because ownership changes everything), are you and your friends more likely to downsize into a studio or rent a room, or move out into another neighborhood? I think one other major difference here is, you and myself represent the minority in the black race. The mere fact that we are on a message board called city-data talking about urban living puts us in a major minority in our race.
I didn't say that the ones earning that type of money DO NOT tend to live in the city. I said that the ones earning lawyer/banker/doctor bucks DO tend to live in the city.
I meant to type "do." Also, black wealth is only concentrated in affordable parts of cities so this is still a moot point. How many wealthy black people live in Center City? How many black people live in a shoe box in the center of Manhattan? This is all still proving my point right? Wealthy black people will live in affordable homes in the city only. D.C. is uber expensive and getting more so. That's why, instead of moving into smaller places, black people are leaving. What is the likelihood that a black person who wanted something cheaper and moved to Anacostia etc., but then became more successful and could afford a $2 million dollar place, would move to 14th street and get a condo?
And they would fall into the group I was not talking about wouldn't they?
But you're not making an appropriate comparison. You're basically arguing that the preference is grounded in racial, cultural differences. If that is true, then we need to compare whites and blacks across all classes. What you're doing is comparing lower income blacks to upper middle class whites. How is that a straight up comparison? Your thesis only holds true if similarly situated blacks prefer the suburbs more than their white counterparts.
I simply don't find that to be the case. If you look at black professionals, they share the same bias towards urban areas. There are just fewer of them, which is why your "Why aren't blacks buying $2 million condos on 14th Street" statement makes no sense at all. It's only a racial/cultural difference if you have young, black, Yale-educated surgeons who consistently opt for the tranquility of Upper Marlboro over the bustle of Adams-Morgan.
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Originally Posted by MDAllstar
I will give you an example of what I mean. If prices went up in the city to levels you and your friends couldn't afford if you were a renter (because ownership changes everything), are you and your friends more likely to downsize into a studio or rent a room, or move out into another neighborhood?
I don't think that's a race thing either. Why do you think white people end up in neighborhoods like Bushwick? I'm sure they could have rented a room in Williamsburg, but they move to a farther out neighborhood because the rent is lower.
But you're not making an appropriate comparison. You're basically arguing that the preference is grounded in racial, cultural differences. If that is true, then we need to compare whites and blacks across all classes. What you're doing is comparing lower income blacks to upper middle class whites. How is that a straight up comparison? Your thesis only holds true if similarly situated blacks prefer the suburbs more than their white counterparts.
I simply don't find that to be the case. If you look at black professionals, they share the same bias towards urban areas. There are just fewer of them, which is why your "Why aren't blacks buying $2 million condos on 14th Street" statement makes no sense at all. It's only a racial/cultural difference if you have young, black, Yale-educated surgeons who consistently opt for the tranquility of Upper Marlboro over the bustle of Adams-Morgan.
I don't think that's a race thing either. Why do you think white people end up in neighborhoods like Bushwick? I'm sure they could have rented a room in Williamsburg, but they move to a farther out neighborhood because the rent is lower.
That's my point though, where are the black people buying less? How about being ok to spend more for less? You have got to admit, black people are cheaper than white people in general right? We do tend to view things different right? I am making a general statement and you are trying to use individual examples. Let me ask you this, by percentage, are black people who like urban living and city life more likely to buy a condo or house if they come into money? Now ask yourself the same thing about white people who like urban living? I just feel like urban Black people value different things in life. Walking and biking just isn't one of them in general. Most would prefer a car in an urban environment if they can afford it.
I meant to type "do." Also, black wealth is only concentrated in affordable parts of cities so this is still a moot point.
That's not really true. But at any rate, what does that have to do with anything? I thought you said that black people don't like cities.
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Originally Posted by MDAllstar
How many wealthy black people live in Center City?
The question is "How many wealthy black people live in Philadelphia?" Why are you expecting to see something in Center City that doesn't really exist in an abundance in the metro area at large? You might as well ask why you don't see many Eskimos in Center City.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDAllstar
How many black people live in a shoe box in the center of Manhattan? This is all still proving my point right? Wealthy black people will live in affordable homes in the city only. D.C. is uber expensive and getting more so. That's why, instead of moving into smaller places, black people are leaving. What is the likelihood that a black person who wanted something cheaper and moved to Anacostia etc., but then became more successful and could afford a $2 million dollar place, would move to 14th street and get a condo?
So question...when white people leave Northeast Philadelphia, are they moving to Center City (rhetorical)? Of course not. We're talking about some older, working-class white people who have no interest in urban amenities. And we're also talking about some younger, middle class white families who also have no interest in that.
And it's the same thing in DC. It's kind of silly to ask why that 53-year old black lady decided to move to Maryland instead of moving into a group house in Adams-Morgan. On the flipside, I have a friend whose dad just retired, and he bought a condo right in the heart of the city.
That's my point though, where are the black people buying less? How about being ok to spend more for less? You have got to admit, black people are cheaper than white people in general right? We do tend to view things different right? I am making a general statement and you are trying to use individual examples. Let me ask you this, by percentage, are black people who like urban living and city life more likely to buy a condo or house if they come into money? Now ask yourself the same thing about white people who like urban living? I just feel like urban Black people value different things in life. Walking and biking just isn't one of them in general. Most would prefer a car in an urban environment if they can afford it.
That has nothing to do with your original argument. You said that the preference for urban living was racial/cultural.
This past weekend was CBC weekend in Washington, DC. If you conducted a survey of all people attending the panels between the ages of 21-40, I would suspect that the breakdown of people living in urban vs. suburban areas would mirror that of the same SES population as a whole. In other words, a 31-year old black lobbyist making $200K is probably as likely to live in the city as a 31-year old white lobbyist making $200K.
The issue is not that black people are more predisposed to suburban living. After all, most of the people who live in cookie cutter suburbia are white! The issue is that there aren't many black people earning baller salaries that could even allow them to live in NoLita, Tribeca, Dupont, etc.
I think this is a bogus way to try to deflect attention from the fact that gentrification is primarily a white, upper middle ciass phenomenon. A black person (or a Hispanic) moving into a neighborhood is not perceived the same as a white person moving into a neighborhood for the reasons I stated in my previous post. And the real-world consequences of their respective presences are very different. An upper middle class white person who moves to Harlem signals to other upper middle class whites (and Whole Foods, Target, real estate developers, etc.) that "Hey, the neighborhood's coming along." An upper middle class black person moving to Harlem is no big deal because upper middle class blacks have always been there. Where do you think Charles Rangel lives?
The person you're responding to is from Portland, where the black population isn't that significant (6%). If gentrifiers = transplant, and transplants are more diverse than the previous population, than her logic makes sense.
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